Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs

Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs - 1885

Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs 1885
WILLIAM C. CORDERAY. Washington, D. C., January 28, 1885. WILLIAM C. CORDERAY sworn and examined. By the Chairman : Question. Mr. Corderay, what is your full name?—Answer. William C. Corderay. Q. Where do you reside?—A. I reside in the Cherokee Nation. Q. At what place in the Cherokee Nation?—A. At the capital—Tahlequah. Q. Have you lived there for some time?—A. Yes, sir. My father lives near there, and I have been residing right there myself. Q. You are a Cherokee?—A. Yes, sir. Q. By blood?—A. Yes, sir. Q. You were born there?—A. Yes, sir; I was born close by there—I was born near Tahlequah. Q. How old are you now, Mr. Corderay?—A. Twenty-nine. Q. What is your business?—A. I have been farming and raising stock. Q. Are you doing that now?—A. Yes, sir. Q. How much stock have you?—A. About eighty head of cattle. Q. Where are they?—A. A few head are near Vinita, and some of them near Tahlequah. Q. Have you any cattle on the Cherokee Strip?—A. No, sir. Q. Do you know anything about that strip?—A. I know the Cherokees had a strip there. Q. A good many of your people engage in stock raising?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Is the number increasing?—A. I think so. Q. Have they land enough?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Without this Cherokee Strip or outlet?—A. Yes, sir, I think they have, unless some of them get larger herds than they have now. Q. You are trying to make your herds larger, are you not?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Can your people make good trades with the cattle? Can they turn them off as well as white men?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you understand the markets as well as they do?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you understand how to take care of cattle as well as they do ?—A. Yes, sir; a great many of our people understand this business as well as white people. Q. Do you hire Cherokees?—A. Yes, sir; and sometimes white men. Q. How much do you have to pay a Cherokee?—A. I don't understand the question. Q. How much do you have to pay a Cherokee for taking care of your cattle? What we call a "cow-boy" I mean.—A. He is paid $1.50 a day and board, but he has to furnish his own horse. Q. Sometimes you employ white men?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Which do you prefer?—A. Well, I would not be very particular, so I had an honest man. Q. Which is the best in your opinion?—A. Well, I don't know that the Cherokees, that is all of them, understand how to take care of cattle as well as whites do. Q. Do you think they could be taught in a little while?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you think it would be a good plan if they were to go into the business?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Would it be a good plan to take this outlet or strip and divide it into separate ranges for your people?—A. Well, if they had the means with which to stock the range, it would be a good idea. Q. Would they go into this business pretty earnestly?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Would that be better than renting the land and not doing anything themselves?—A. It would be better, I presume, for those who are able to stock the ranges, but not for the poor classes of people. Q. Suppose a poor man goes and earns $30 a month, would it be as well as for somebody to come and give him $30 without his doing any work for it?—A. No, sir; I think if he worked for it it would be much better. Q. You think it better for your people to go into this business themselves, do you not?—A. Yes, sir; I think, if the cattlemen can handle the land at a profit and pay rent for the land, our own citizens could use the land to an advantage and it would be better for them. Q. Do you think these parties pay enough for the land?—A. No, sir; hardly. Q. What do you think would be a fair rental for it?—A. Well, sir, I don't know exactly what grazing lands are worth. I don't know that I am sufficiently posted to answer that question. Q. Well, according to your judgment?—A. Something near $200,000. Q. You think it ought to be double what it is?—A.. Yes, sir. Q. Do you think at the time the lease was made it was worth double?—A. Yes, sir. Q. How came your council to let them have it for half what they could have gotten from somebody else; do you know anything about that?—A. Well, I cannot say that I do know much about it. Q. Were you around there when it was done?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know anything about the manner in which it was done ?—A. Well, they did it through the council, and the council passed the law. Q. Do you know that anybody else was there offering to give more?—A. Other parties were there who said they wanted to make a bid on the land. They wanted the council to lease the land to the highest bidder, some of them did, and the council said if they wanted to give more they could introduce a bill to that effect. Q. They did introduce a bill, did they not?—A. I don't think any other bill came before the council. That was voted down in committee and this other one was adopted. Q. The one that was intended for the Cherokee citizens was defeated in the committee?—A. Yes, sir; a joint committee was appointed to examine these matters. Q. How came the council to give the land to the white men instead of their own people?—A. Well, I can't explain that. Q. Did you ever hear any reason given?—A. Well, I heard that some of the members expressed. themselves in this way, that they did not think we were able to stock it and we would have to sublease the land to white men; that these parties would probably pay the first installment and no more, and the property would not be worth enough to make it pay them. Q. Did you ever bear any other reason given; any other reason why they didn't let it to the Cherokees?—A. Yes, sir; I heard that the members of the council were bought in the matter. Q. What did they say about that?—A. They said that cattlemen had used money to get the bill through. Q. Who said that?—A. I heard several citizens speak of it. Q. Did they say they knew anything about it, or only heard it?—A. I don't know that I heard any one say they knew positively about it. I have heard Johnson Thompson, of Tahlequah, who was interested in the lease—that is, the bill that provided to lease to citizens—speak about it. Q. What did he say about the council being bought?—A. He said he thought they could have gotten the bill through if the other men had not used so much money. Q. Did he say anything about their using money? —A. About the most I heard him say about the use of money was, he said that he had promised a man $500 to assist him and the fellow went to work for the other bill at the last. He worked for him first and then worked for the others. He inferred that the cattlemen had overbid him a little. Q. He did not stay by him?—A. No, sir; he did not stay by him. Q. Was he a member of the council?—A. No, sir; he was an outsider he had employed, and promised to give him $500. Q. What was his name?—A. George Downing; he said the first thing he knew the fellow was working for the other side. Q. Did he lose his $500?—A. He only promised him $500 if the bill got through. Q. Was there any other evidence you heard that made you think the money was used, or did you hear him say anything else that led you to think that members of the council were bought?—A. I don't think I do. Q. Did you hear anything besides what Mr. Thompson told you?—A. Well, I have heard several, but I don't suppose they knew anything about it directly. Q. Have you heard members of the council speak about the matter?—A. I have heard members of the council say that they thought money was used. Q. Who said that?—A. Crittendon said he thought money was used. Q. What did he say?—A. He said he thought money was used. Q. That is the Mr. Crittendon that was here?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Anybody else?—A. I can't tell exactly who told me, but I heard that a certain member of the senate had offered two members of the council $10 each to support the bill. Q. Did they take it?—A. No, sir; they would not take it. Q. You heard that a member of the senate had offered two members of the council this money?—A. Yes, sir. Q. What was the name of this member?—A. Sam. Saunders. Q. Did he tell you so?—A. No, sir; I just heard so. Q. You do not recollect who told you?—A. No, sir. Q. What did this man, whose name you have forgotten, tell you about it?—A. He said these members of the council told him they were offered that much money. Q. Did he say who they were?—A. Yes, sir; French Rowe and James Tehee. Q. Did you ever hear anything they said about it?—A. Yes, sir; I heard that they did not take the money. Q. Who told you this?—A. I heard some one say that Saunders offered the money to these men and they did not take it. Q. Why didn't they take it?—A. I suppose they didn't want to take it. Q. They refused it?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Is there anything else you can communicate to the committee that will be of benefit?—A. No, sir; I think not. Return To Testimony Index.
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Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs
1885

WILLIAM C. CORDERAY.

Washington, D. C., January 28, 1885.

WILLIAM C. CORDERAY sworn and examined.
By the Chairman :

Question. Mr. Corderay, what is your full name?—Answer. William C. Corderay.
Q. Where do you reside?—A. I reside in the Cherokee Nation.
Q. At what place in the Cherokee Nation?—A. At the capital—Tahlequah.
Q. Have you lived there for some time?—A. Yes, sir. My father lives near there, and I have been residing right there myself.
Q. You are a Cherokee?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. By blood?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were born there?—A. Yes, sir; I was born close by there—I was born near Tahlequah.
Q. How old are you now, Mr. Corderay?—A. Twenty-nine.
Q. What is your business?—A. I have been farming and raising stock.
Q. Are you doing that now?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. How much stock have you?—A. About eighty head of cattle.
Q. Where are they?—A. A few head are near Vinita, and some of them near Tahlequah.
Q. Have you any cattle on the Cherokee Strip?—A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know anything about that strip?—A. I know the Cherokees had a strip there.
Q. A good many of your people engage in stock raising?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is the number increasing?—A. I think so.
Q. Have they land enough?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Without this Cherokee Strip or outlet?—A. Yes, sir, I think they have, unless some of them get larger herds than they have now.
Q. You are trying to make your herds larger, are you not?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can your people make good trades with the cattle? Can they turn them off as well as white men?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you understand the markets as well as they do?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you understand how to take care of cattle as well as they do ?—A. Yes, sir; a great many of our people understand this business as well as white people.
Q. Do you hire Cherokees?—A. Yes, sir; and sometimes white men.
Q. How much do you have to pay a Cherokee?—A. I don't understand the question.
Q. How much do you have to pay a Cherokee for taking care of your cattle? What we call a "cow-boy" I mean.—A. He is paid $1.50 a day and board, but he has to furnish his own horse.
Q. Sometimes you employ white men?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Which do you prefer?—A. Well, I would not be very particular, so I had an honest man.
Q. Which is the best in your opinion?—A. Well, I don't know that the Cherokees, that is all of them, understand how to take care of cattle as well as whites do.
Q. Do you think they could be taught in a little while?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you think it would be a good plan if they were to go into the business?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would it be a good plan to take this outlet or strip and divide it into separate ranges for your people?—A. Well, if they had the means with which to stock the range, it would be a good idea.
Q. Would they go into this business pretty earnestly?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would that be better than renting the land and not doing anything themselves?—A. It would be better, I presume, for those who are able to stock the ranges, but not for the poor classes of people.
Q. Suppose a poor man goes and earns $30 a month, would it be as well as for somebody to come and give him $30 without his doing any work for it?—A. No, sir; I think if he worked for it it would be much better.
Q. You think it better for your people to go into this business themselves, do you not?—A. Yes, sir; I think, if the cattlemen can handle the land at a profit and pay rent for the land, our own citizens could use the land to an advantage and it would be better for them.
Q. Do you think these parties pay enough for the land?—A. No, sir; hardly.
Q. What do you think would be a fair rental for it?—A. Well, sir, I don't know exactly what grazing lands are worth. I don't know that I am sufficiently posted to answer that question.
Q. Well, according to your judgment?—A. Something near $200,000.
Q. You think it ought to be double what it is?—A.. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you think at the time the lease was made it was worth double?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. How came your council to let them have it for half what they could have gotten from somebody else; do you know anything about that?—A. Well, I cannot say that I do know much about it.
Q. Were you around there when it was done?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know anything about the manner in which it was done ?—A. Well, they did it through the council, and the council passed the law.
Q. Do you know that anybody else was there offering to give more?—A. Other parties were there who said they wanted to make a bid on the land. They wanted the council to lease the land to the highest bidder, some of them did, and the council said if they wanted to give more they could introduce a bill to that effect.
Q. They did introduce a bill, did they not?—A. I don't think any other bill came before the council. That was voted down in committee and this other one was adopted.
Q. The one that was intended for the Cherokee citizens was defeated in the committee?—A. Yes, sir; a joint committee was appointed to examine these matters.
Q. How came the council to give the land to the white men instead of their own people?—A. Well, I can't explain that.
Q. Did you ever hear any reason given?—A. Well, I heard that some of the members expressed. themselves in this way, that they did not think we were able to stock it and we would have to sublease the land to white men; that these parties would probably pay the first installment and no more, and the property would not be worth enough to make it pay them.
Q. Did you ever bear any other reason given; any other reason why they didn't let it to the Cherokees?—A. Yes, sir; I heard that the members of the council were bought in the matter.
Q. What did they say about that?—A. They said that cattlemen had used money to get the bill through.
Q. Who said that?—A. I heard several citizens speak of it.
Q. Did they say they knew anything about it, or only heard it?—A. I don't know that I heard any one say they knew positively about it. I have heard Johnson Thompson, of Tahlequah, who was interested in the lease—that is, the bill that provided to lease to citizens—speak about it.
Q. What did he say about the council being bought?—A. He said he thought they could have gotten the bill through if the other men had not used so much money.
Q. Did he say anything about their using money? —A. About the most I heard him say about the use of money was, he said that he had promised a man $500 to assist him and the fellow went to work for the other bill at the last. He worked for him first and then worked for the others. He inferred that the cattlemen had overbid him a little.
Q. He did not stay by him?—A. No, sir; he did not stay by him.
Q. Was he a member of the council?—A. No, sir; he was an outsider he had employed, and promised to give him $500.
Q. What was his name?—A. George Downing; he said the first thing he knew the fellow was working for the other side.
Q. Did he lose his $500?—A. He only promised him $500 if the bill got through.
Q. Was there any other evidence you heard that made you think the money was used, or did you hear him say anything else that led you to think that members of the council were bought?—A. I don't think I do.
Q. Did you hear anything besides what Mr. Thompson told you?—A. Well, I have heard several, but I don't suppose they knew anything about it directly.
Q. Have you heard members of the council speak about the matter?—A. I have heard members of the council say that they thought money was used.
Q. Who said that?—A. Crittendon said he thought money was used.
Q. What did he say?—A. He said he thought money was used.
Q. That is the Mr. Crittendon that was here?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Anybody else?—A. I can't tell exactly who told me, but I heard that a certain member of the senate had offered two members of the council $10 each to support the bill.
Q. Did they take it?—A. No, sir; they would not take it.
Q. You heard that a member of the senate had offered two members of the council this money?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was the name of this member?—A. Sam. Saunders.
Q. Did he tell you so?—A. No, sir; I just heard so.
Q. You do not recollect who told you?—A. No, sir.
Q. What did this man, whose name you have forgotten, tell you about it?—A. He said these members of the council told him they were offered that much money.
Q. Did he say who they were?—A. Yes, sir; French Rowe and James Tehee.
Q. Did you ever hear anything they said about it?—A. Yes, sir; I heard that they did not take the money.
Q. Who told you this?—A. I heard some one say that Saunders offered the money to these men and they did not take it.
Q. Why didn't they take it?—A. I suppose they didn't want to take it.
Q. They refused it?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is there anything else you can communicate to the committee that will be of benefit?—A. No, sir; I think not.

Return To Testimony Index.

This site may be freely linked, but not duplicated without consent.
All rights reserved. Commercial use of material within this site is prohibited.
The copyright (s) on this page must appear on all copied and/or printed material.
© 2024 by C.S.L.S.A. Site Coordinator