Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs - 1885
Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs
1885

W. E. MALALEY.

Washington, D. C., January 6, 1885.
W. E. MALALEY sworn and examined.
By the Chairman :
Question. What is your full name?—Answer. W. E. Malaley.
Q. Where do you reside?—A. At Caldwell, Kans.
Q. What is your business?—A. I am in the stock business.
Q. Are you a lessee of any of the Indian lands?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. What lands?—A. In the Cheyenne and Arapaho Reservation.
Q. What is the name of the lease?—A. It is a lease made directly to me.
Q. Was it made to anybody beside you?—A. No, sir.
Q. To you alone—A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many acres does it contain?—A. About 500,000 acres.
Q. Have you the lease with you?—A. No, sir.
Q. What date does it bear?—A. It was given in 1883.
Q. For how long a term?—A. For a term of ten years.
Q. At what rental?—A. At 2 cents an acre.
Q. Payable how?—A. Semiannually.
Q. Five hundred thousand acres, you said?—A. About that.
Q. In what part of the reservation is it?—A. It is the northwestern part of the Cheyenne and Arapaho Reservation.
Q. is it close by the Cherokee Outlet, or Strip?—A. No, sir; it joins the east boundary of the Pan-Handle of Texas, and south of the Canadian.
Q. What was your business before taking the lease?—A. I have been connected with the stock business ever since I went West. I went to Kansas in 1870 from Indiana, and I have been handling stock ever since.
Q. Have you been among the Indians handling stock before this lease was made?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you lived among the Indians?—A. I have been in and out of that Indian country for ten or eleven years.
Q. Were you in business there before you obtained the lease?—A. I was buying cattle in Texas and shipping them.
Q. You owned cattle yourself?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was anybody else interested in your lease but yourself?—A. No, sir.
Q. Did you make the trade with the Indians yourself?—A. No, sir.
Q. Who did?—A. The agent down there.
Q. What is his name?—A. Mr. Miles.
Q. There were a number of leases made at the same time?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. The reservation was apportioned, among several of you, was it not?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you there at the time?—A.. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you select your own territory?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was it your personal examination that led to your making this lease?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you at the council?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did Mr. Miles say to the Indians?—A. He suggested to them that they needed something more than they were getting from the Government to support them, and he advised them to lease some of their country to the stockmen, and he said the Secretary of the Interior was in favor of it.
Q. Well, go on and tell us everything he said to them.—A.. Well, I could not remember all that he said.
Q. Will you tell us all he said to them about leasing the land to the stockmen?—A. He did not encourage them to lease it except in the way I have said.
Q. Will you repeat the way in which he put it to them?—A. I could not do that.
Q. Did they agree to do it at once?—A. No, sir; they counseled among themselves for several days.
Q. Did they have several meetings?—A. I suppose they did.
Q. How many did you go to?—A. Two or three.
Q. Well, what was said at the different meetings?—A. Some of them seemed to think they ought to have more, and some thought it was quite enough.
Q. Did any of them think it was best not to lease at all?—A. A few thought so.
Q. What was said to them?—A. They talked among themselves.
Q. Was Mr. Miles the only white man who talked to them?—A. I talked with some of the chiefs myself.
Q. What did you say to them?—A. told them I thought it would be a good thing to lease some of their country, as I understood it was favored by the Secretary of the Interior, and I understood other Indians were going to do the same thing.
Q. You told them this to induce them to make the lease?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. You told them the Secretary was in favor of it, and you understood other Indians were going to do the same thing?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you represent to them that anybody thought that 2 cents was enough?—A. Yes, sir; I told them that I had been talking with the cattlemen and they seemed to think that was a sufficient rental. Taking into consideration the risk we would run in turning our cattle in there amongst these Indians, many of whom were pretty wild yet, we thought that a sufficient rental. We also offered to employ all the Indians who would work for us.
Q. You were there when the leases were made?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who made your lease for you—that is, who made out the paper? —A. We had a clerk.
Q. Was it the clerk of the agency?—A. Yes, sir; I think it was the clerk of the agency.
Q. The leases were made at the agency?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. After the leases were drawn did the Indians have a council?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who read the lease to the Indians when they were ready to sign their names to it?—A. The agent.
Q. Was it done through an interpreter?—A. I believe he talks their language; but I believe they had an interpreter also.
Q. Was the whole matter explained to the Indians?—A. The agent explained all the advantages they were going to receive, and he would try and see that they got their rental.
Q. Did he put his name on the lease?—A. I believe he did.
Q. Did he approve of them in writing on the leases themselves?—A. Well, I could not say.
Q. How much stock have you on your range?—A. Well, I have turned it into a company, and the company has it partly stocked.
Q. Your land is stocked by a company?—A. Yes, sir.

By Mr. Harrison:

Q. Did you assign your lease to a company?—A. Yes, sir.

By the Chairman :

Q. Who now is interested beside yourself in this lease?—A. I could not tell you to save my life. The books are all in New York.

By Mr. Cameron :

Q. You know some of them, don"t you?—A. Mr. Fenlon is one of them.
Q. Well, who are the officers?—A. That is more than I know.
Q. What is the company called?—A. It is called the Cheyenne and Arapahoe Cattle Company.

By the Chairman :

Q. That is the name of it?—A. Yes, sir:
Q. But you don"t know who the officers are?—A. No, sir.

By Mr. Harrison:

Q. How much stock have you in the company?—A. Probably $10,000 or $50,000.

By the Chairman :

Q. What is the whole amount of the stock?—A. Well, I don"t know just what that is.
Q. You don"t know what share belongs to you?—A. No, sir.
Q. Who employed you to get the lease?—A. I employed myself.
Q. Did you get it for anybody beside yourself ?—A. No, sir.
Q. You got the lease of 500,000 acres, but it has slipped into somebody else"s hands whom you do not know?—A. Yes, sir; it is pretty near that way.
Q. To whom did you talk about putting it into a company?—A. I talked with Mr. Fenton. He was acquainted East, and I was not.
Q. Well, is he the only one you know of?—A. Yes, sir, he is the only one I am acquainted with.
Q. Is he the only one whose name you know?—A. Yes, sir; about the only one.
Q. Well, now, Mr. Malaley, how near can you come to telling us another man"s name, if he is about the only one?—A. I don"t know the others.
Q. In the company in which you own $50,000, where you originally owned the whole, you state the Mr. Fenlon is about the only one you know?—A. Well, sir, there are other names, but I am not familiar with them.
Q. Can"t you pronounce them?—A. No, sir.
Q. Do not you know the name of a single individual to whom you parted with this property?—A. No, sir; I am not well enough acquainted with the matter to say.
Q. Do you mean to say that you do not know the names of the men to whom you sold it?mdash;A. I left it mostly to Mr. Fenlon.
Q. Did you sell it to Mr. Fenlon?—A. No, sir.
Q. To whom did you sell it?—A. It was turned over to Mr. Fenlon.
Q. Who turned it over to him?—A. I did.
Q. Did you sell it to him?—A. I turned it over in such a way that he could put it into a company.
Q. Now, just tell us how that thing is done. I would like to know how that was done. Is there any other way except to sell it to him that you know of?—A. I do not know, sir.
The Chairman .Well, I do not know, either.
The Witness. I know I put in some money.

By Mr. Harrison:

Q. Did you put in it the whole amount in money, or did they allow you something for the lease?—A. I turned it in in stock.
Q. The lease was yours?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you organized the company with Mr. Fenlon?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did the company pay you in stock partly, and then you took more stock, or how was it?—A. It was turned over to the company in stock.
Q. You know bow much you had in it?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. How much?—A. $50,000.
Q. Have you only $50,000 in stock?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. So they did not give you anything for your lease. Did you get the lease for these gentlemen?—A. No, sir; I got it for myself alone.
Q. Then you went and organized a company.—A. Yes, sir; Mr. FenIon did.
Q. Did this company give you any stock for your lease, or did you pay cash for all the stock you took in the company?—A. Well, sir, I hardly know how we stand.

By Mr. Walker:

Q. At whose suggestion did you go and obtain the lease?—A. At my own suggestion, sir.
Q. No one suggested it to you?mdash;A. No, sir.
Q. You went of your own free will?—.A. Yes, sir.
Q. You say you put about $50,000 into this company?—A. Yes, sir; I put in $50,000.

By the Chairman :

Q. What was that $50,000 made up of?—A. Money.
Q. Did you pay in $50,000 in cash?—A. Yes, sir; it was in cash.
Q. Your own cash?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. You counted out $50,000 and put it into the company?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long had you had the money?—A. Some time, sir.
Q. Well, how long?—A. Probably some five or six months.
Q. From whom did you get it?—A. I got it by selling cattle.
Q. Your own cattle ?—A. Yes, sir.

By Mr. Ingalls:

Q. Mr. Malaley, how much of this land is fenced?—A. It is all in­closed now.
Q. How many cattle are there on the lease?—A. I presume the company has twenty-five or twenty-eight thousand head of cattle.

By Mr. Walker :

Q. Did you purchase this cattle you spoke of with your own money?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. From whom did you get the money to purchase?—A. I made the money by dealing in the business.
Q. Have you been engaged in the business for some time?—A. Yes, sir; some thirteen years.
Q. Did you pay anything for the purpose of obtaining this lease?—A. No, sir.
Q. You did not agree to pay anything ?—A. No, sir; we did not agree to anything further than what we agreed to pay the Indians.
Q. Mr. Miles said the Secretary of the Interior favored the lease?—A. Yes, sir; he talked that way.
Q. What did Mr. Miles say in regard to the statement of the Secretary of the Interior?—A. I do not recall what he said, but the impression I got from outside parties was that he said the Secretary of the Interior favored the lease. In fact it seemed to be the general feeling that the Indian country would be leased. That impression prevailed all over the country. The stockmen got to feeling that way.
Q. Is that the only lease you are interested in?—A. No, sir; I have a small lease on the Cherokee Strip.
Q. From whom do you lease it ?—A. From the Cherokee Strip Live Stock Association.

By Mr. Hartson

Q. How much land have you in the Cherokee Strip?—A. Somewhere about 16,000 or 17,000 acres.
Q. Is anybody interested with you in this Cherokee Strip lease?—A. No, sir; that I have myself.
Q. Is it stocked?—A. Yes, sir; I have a few cattle and horses on it, but it is mostly a beef range. I buy and sell cattle right along, and put them on there for a while and then sell them off.
Q. What do you pay for that lease?—A. Two cents an acre.
Q. To whom do you pay it; to the Indians, or to the Live Stock As­sociation?—A. I pay it to the Cherokee Strip Live Stock Association.

By Mr. Bowen :

Q. Were the Indians utilizing these lands for any purpose prior to the lease?—A. No, sir.
Q. Did they derive any income from them?—A. Not a bit, sir. They were only deriving benefit from collecting cattle which strayed from the different ranges.
Q. Well, in point of fact, Mr. Malaley, you turned this lease over to Mr. Fenlon, and he got up a company?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that is the reason you know so little about the organization of the company?—A. I never had anything to do with the company"s business, and do not want to. I do not know and do not care to know anything about it.

By Mr. Gorman :

Q. Before you made the lease I suppose you had a meeting with other cattle-men who were going into the same business. Did not you have an understanding with the balance of the cattle-men as to what part you were to get?—A. No, sir. I did not have this understanding on the Cherokee Strip.
Q. Now, sir, in reference to this 50,000 acres. Did you not have an understanding that you were to have that portion of the reservation, and Messrs. Evans and Hunter and others were to have other portions?—A. Well, sir, I believe I did.
Q. Who was that understanding with?—A. We bad no understanding before the lease was made. Of course I spoke to Mr. Evans about that afterwards.
Q. Did not you consult with some of these gentlemen and each of you agree on the number of acres wanted and a selection of them?—A. No, sir.
Q. You had no understanding at all?—A. No, sir.
Q. How did you get at the price?—A. We obtained that by driving over the land, and seeing what it was really worth.
Q. Then you had an understanding, did you not, that you were getting this, and some one else that portion of the land? Did not you have an understanding with any one?—A. No, sir; with no one.
Q. Now, you have seen a great deal of the Cherokee Indians, have .you not ?—A. Well, sir, I am not very well acquainted with them.
Q. Were you not in some of the councils, and did you not sign some of these leases on the part of the Cherokees—I mean the leases of the Cherokee Strip?—A. Yes, sir; if you refer to the lease by the Cherokee Live Stock Association.
Q. So you were acting for them, and at the same time interested in the strip.
Mr. Harrison. Mr. Chairman, he did not mean to say that.
The Witness. I signed the lease for myself and not for the Cherokees.
Q. You never acted for the Indians at all?—A. No, sir.

By Mr. Bowen:

Q. Mr. Malaley, do you wish to make any further statement than the statement that you made responsive to these questions?—A. No, sir.
The Chairman . State anything in relation to the lease that you desire.
The Witness. I only wish to state that we had no protection from the Indians killing our stock and burning the grass.
Q. What did you expect in that regard when you took the lease?—A. I was under the impression, and the others were also, that our leases would be approved by the Secretary of the Interior and sustained by the Department. We took them with that understanding. We all went into this lease in good faith.
Q. What led you to suppose they would be approved by the Department?—A. Well, sir, the Indians were not tilling the lands; there was no game upon them.
Q. For this reason you supposed the Indians would not care to trouble you?—A. Yes, sir; we took it for granted that they had so much land left they would not bother us, and we understood from the conversations of the Secretary—
Q. What do you allude to by conversations of the Secretary?—A. Well, the only knowledge I have gained is, that he has been in favor of these leases.
Q. What did you learn about his being in favor of the leases?—A. Well, we understood he said this country was lying idle and the Indians getting nothing for it, and it ought to be utilized in some way.
Q. What number of acres are there in the Cherokee Strip lease you spoke of a while ago!—A. I could not tell, sir.
Q. Cannot you approximate—A. I am not familiar enough with the size of the Strip to approximate.
Q. How much land is in your lease?—A. Some 16,000 or 17,000 acres.
Q. Have you any idea as to the total number of acres in the Chero­kee strip?—A. No, sir.
Q. Have you any idea as to the size of the territory covered by the leases?—A. I think it is some 57 miles wide in a portion of it. I do not know much about the country.

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