Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs - 1885
Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs
1885

JOHN W. SCOTT.

Washington, D. C., January 6, 1885.

John W. Scott sworn and examined.
By the Chairman :
Question. Where do you reside?—Answer. I reside in the Indian Territory.
Q. What is your business?—A. I am at present agent at the Ponca, Pawnee, and Otoe Agency.
Q. When did you take possession of that office?—A. First of last January.
Q. Had you any experience with Indians before that time?—A. Very little, sir.
Q. How many Indians are under your control?—A. I could not state exactly, bat there are in the neighborhood of 2,500.
Q. Are they of different tribes?—A. Yes, sir; of four different tribes.
Q. What are those tribes?—A. The Pawnees, Poncas, Otoes, and Nez Perces
Q. About how much land is in the reservation to which these tribes are assigned?—A. I have a memorandum here which will aid me in answering that question.
Q. Very well, if your memorandum gives the number of Indians, please give that at the same time.—A. Yes, sir; the Poncas have 101,894 acres.
Q. How many Indians are there?—A. There are 560 Poncas.
Q. Well, now go on to the next.—A. The Otoes have 129,113 acres.
Q. How many of them are there?—A. About 265 or 270.
Q. Take the next.—A. The Pawnees have 283,020 acres.
Q. How many of them are there ?—A. Eleven hundred and fifty-five, I think, by the last census.
Q. Well, give us the rest,—A. The Nez Perces have 90,711 acres.
Q. How many Nez Perces are there?—A. There about 250 Nez Perces.
Q. What is the character of the land occupied by the Poncas?—A. The Ponca Reservation is a beautiful piece of land. It consists mainly of four townships, and there is no better land in the Territory.
Q. Is it agricultural or grazing land ?—A. A great portion of it is agricultural land; quite a portion is good agricultural land; some of it is not, but half of it is good agricultural land. The other half is not prairie but not by any means bad land, but very good for grazing; more than half of it is susceptible of cultivation.
Q. Is it pretty well timbered ?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. And well watered?—A. Yes, sir; well timbered and well watered. It lies on the west bank of the Arkansas River, and the Salt Fork runs nearly through the middle of it. There is considerable timber on it, although of scrub character.
Q. What is the character of the land in the other reservations?—A. None of it is near so well as that on the Ponca Reserve. The Otoe land is poor.
Q. What portion of the Otoe land is suitable for agriculture?—A. Well, I will say less than one fourth of it. That is mainly confined to the Red Rock stream and to another small stream called Greasy. The balance is not broken and is poor, but still it is good grazing land.
Q. Now describe the other two.—A. The Pawnee Reservation is rougher than the others; it is also the largest. The best land is in Black Bear Creek Valley, which is very narrow and along a little creek called the Skee-dee, but the land is not broken. I am not as well ac­quainted with the Pawnee Reservation as I am with the others. I could hardly state the proportion of tillable land in that reservation, but I would say that one fourth could be reduced to cultivation.
Q. How far apart are these reservations? How much travel do you make in going from one to the other?—A. I have to travel about 50 miles from one extremity to the other.

By Mr. Harrison:

Q. They are contiguous, are they not?—A. Yes, sir; the Nez Perces are located up the Salt Fork.

By the Chairman:

Q. The agency buildings at the different agencies are in charge of assistants, are they not?— A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you are the general agent for them all?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. The four are consolidated?—A. The Nez Perces we never con­sidered to have a separate agency.
Q. How many Nez Perces did you say there were?—A. About 250,I think.
Q. Of Joseph's band?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. How much land have they?—A. I have forgotten; but I think 70,000 and some acres; no, 90,711 are the figures.
Q. Take them together, is there enough agricultural land on each of them to give each head of a family 160 acres in condition to go to farm­?—A. As regards the Nez Perces, Poncas, and Otoes, that is true. I think if it could be consolidated together land could be obtained for them. It is also true of the Pawnees that each family could get 160 acres of good land.
Q. You do not think there is enough to give each man over twenty-one years of age 160 acres, do you?—A. Yes, sir; I would say there is.
Q. Are they disposed to do that thing?—A. A good many are so disposed and are proceeding in that direction as well as could be expected. The Poncas are doing very well, a larger portion are engaged in agriculture than any of the other tribes. They are disposed- to set themselves up, and each one has made improvements on his own farm. They do not want it in severalty, but they are willing to take certificates. They say the Government will sell the balance if they take it in severalty, and they do not want that done.
Q. That is the objection that they have to taking land in severalty? —A. Yes, sir; they are afraid that the result will be the rest of the land will be disposed of. They say that their children will need it all.
Q. If they could have the title to the balance, could they understand 1 —A. Yes, sir, pretty well, but there was a good deal of talk last winter about a bill being passed to give Indians land in severalty and open the balance to settlement. The Pawnees do not feel that way, and some of them have taken severalty and some of them have taken certificates of allotment which the Department issues. It is not a patent exactly, but it is of the force of the patent. It is the title of the individual as against the tribe.
Q. Have any of these Indians antler your charge made any lease of land ?—A. Yes, sir; all have made leases, every tribe.
Q. Take the Ponces; when did they make the lease?—A. Well, the arrangement was made before I went there and the lease was executed afterwards, in February or March, 1884.
Q. Have you a copy of the lease with you?—A. Yes, sir; I have.
Q. Will you give us a copy ?—A. Yes, sir.
(Witness submits lease.)
Q. Who was the agent when the lease was made?—A. L. C. Woodin was agent at the time.
Q. How much land did it cover?—A. About 50,000 acres.
Q. All in one body?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who selected the land?—A. The Indians and lessees together.
Q. What portion of the reservation was leased?—A. They took that portion south of the Salt Fork, which runs east and west through the Ponca Reservation.
Q. What is the character of the land which is embraced in the lease as compared with what is left?—A. It is the poorest and highest and driest land on the reservation, and it is the only high prairie on the reservation.
Q. Is it best suited to grazing?—A. Well, no; it is the best suited to farming. That portion the Indians do not occupy and never did oc­cupy.
Q. How much did it leave to the Indians?—A. It leaves them some 50,000 acres.
Q. Is it bordering on a stream?—A. Yes, sir; the Salt Fork is the boundary.
Q. It leaves the best land to the Indians?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you examined this lease?—A. I have not looked into the leases very carefully.
Q. For what number of years was it made?—A. It runs for five years from the 1st of June last, I think.
Q. It is executed on the part of whom?—A. Of certain chiefs of the tribe and J. H. Sherburne, or lessee.

By Mr. Harrison:

Q. Who did you say?—A. Joseph H. Sherburne.

By the Chairman:

Q. What did you call his name?—A. Joseph H. Shelburne; he is the licensed trader at the Ponca Agency.
Q. Has he sublet it?—A. No, sir; he keeps and stocks it himself.
Q. And you say he is one of the traders at the agency?—A. There is only one; he is the sole trader.
Q. What rental does he pay?—A. Seventeen hundred dollars a year.
Q. He pays that for 50,000 acres?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. How did you ascertain the amount of land contained in the lease?—A. Well, sir, it is rather an estimate; it is done by taking the map and estimating the amount of land in the reservation; it is substantially near the amount; it occupies a little more than one-half the reservation.
Q. How often is the rental paid; once or twice a year?—A. I think he pays only once a year.
Q. Have you been present when the payments were made?—A. He has only paid the Indians once.
Q. Were you present on that occasion?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Describe the method pursued in paying the Indians?—A. We have a roll with the name of every family, and adult without a family. The lessee takes that roll, and, in the presence of myself and clerks, the Indians are collected at his store, and the name of each individual is called, and the amount due to him or to a family is counted out and handed to them. It is ascertained by dividing the amount of the rent by the number of individuals in the tribes, and the number in each family constitutes the amount.
Q. Is it paid to the head of the family?—A. Yes, sir.

By Mr. Harrison:

Q. It is paid in money, I believe?—A. Yes, sir; always in money.

By the Chairman:

Q. Is it paid in anything else?—A. No, sir; nothing else is ever paid, and if they owe him a bill he does not take it out, but leaves it to them to pay it if they choose.
Q. What season of the year was it?—A. It was last June, I think; I think that is the date.
Q. Did you have any knowledge of what the Indians did with their money after they got it?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did they do with itl—A. They used it in buying such things as they needed; these Indians have gotten o'er the gewgaw state.
Q. Where is the money paid?—A. Sometimes the money is paid at Sherburne's and sometimes at Arkansas City, which is 35 miles from the agency; when they have enough money they go up there, but they do their trading, generally, with Sherburne.
Q. What do they generally buy?—A. They nearly always buy something to eat; they buy canned vegetables, fruits, flour, coffee, sugar, and calico.
Q. They have a proportion of these articles issued to them annually, I believe?—A. Yes, sir; but it does not half supply their wants.
Q. Do they live in houses?—A. Yes, sir; most of them live in houses.
Q. You mean the Poncas?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does the Government build the houses for them?—A. A few houses have been built by the Government, but the Indians themselves built most of the others, with the assistance of the agency employés.
Q. What kind of houses do they build?—A. Some frame and some of hewn logs.
Q. Are they generally disposed to go into houses?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. And to separate on the land?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. They do not huddle together, do they?—A. A few do, but I do not allow that, and in summer they all live on their places.
Q. Has War Eagle a farm?—A. Yes, sir; he has a farm-of his own.
Q. Does he work it himself?—A. Yes, sir; he works pretty well himself, some perhaps do more work, but he raises good crops.
Q. Have you a school?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. And have you land enough for all agricultural purposes they could wisely use it for?—A. Yes, sir; they have abundance of agricultural land left so far as the tribe is concerned.
Q. This lease does not infringe upon them, then?—A. No, sir; they have plenty of land left for agricultural purposes and for raising their own stock.
Q. Does having all this money have any tendency to make them idle and make them rely upon this, rather than upon their own personal efforts?—A. No more than the money they get from annuities. All that, of course, tends to lower their feeling of independence, and take away, to some extent, the inducement to effort.
Q. Have you any suggetions as to a change of method, or are you satisfied that the one now pursued is, on the whole, the best?—A. Do you mean in regard to land
Q. Yes; that is what I mean.—A. Well, I think, it is best as it is. Before the leases were made there was cattle running everywhere over the reservation. After the leases were made it was provided in them "that the land shall be securely fenced,"and they (the lessees) have this land fenced with barbed-wire that keeps the cattle within bounds. Formerly it was next to impossible for an Indian to raise anything, be­cause the cattle ate up their small crops, and in that respect the leases are an advantage.
Q. Is that a sufficient rental, do you think?—A. Well, sir, I am not prepared to judge of that. I do not know what the profits of the business are.
Q. How much per acre do the lessees pay?—A. It is estimated at 3 cents per acre, and that seems to be agreed upon as a fair rental.

By Mr. Harrison :

Q. Would it not bring more if it were open to competition7—A. Cer­tainly it would, sir.

By Mr. Cameron :

Q. How many cattle are there on this land?—A. There are two past­ures. The lease covers the south half of the reservation and the stage-route runs through it, and Mr. Sherburne makes two fences, leaving the stage route entirely, and he has, I think, in the neighborhood of 2,000 head of cattle in the two pastures.
Q. How many head of cattle do they allow upon this land?—A. The cattlemen claim that the land will not carry more than six or eight head to the 100 acres, winter and summer, and, therefore, they say they are not able to pay more for the land.

By the Chairman :

Q. How much of the negotiations for the lease transpired after you came there?—A. The bargain had been made before, but the papers were drawn afterwards. Nothing was said about a bargain after that; it was understood before that time. Mr. Sherburne and the Indians went to Winfield, Kans., and executed the lease.
Q. You were not present?—A.; No, sir; I was not present.
Q. Have you any knowledge as to how the lease was obtained?—A. No, sir; I have no knowledge as to how the lease was obtained.
Q. You have heard no talk among the Indians about it?— A. No. sir; but I believe they are entirely satisfied. They make no objection; they seem to be satisfied. A few days ago a little paper called The Council Fire, which is circulated through the Territory, contained an article upon leases, and it has been suggested that the price was too low. White Eagle said to me the other day, that the rent ought to be 4 cents an acre.
Q. Do you know anything about this Mr. Sherburne having any com­munication with the Interior Department about this lease previous to its being made?—A. No, sir; I do not.

By Mr. Harrison:

Q. Has he any associates in business?—A. I do not know that.
Q. Have you heard of it?—A. No, sir; I have not heard so. I have an idea he may have some associates, but I do not know that. He may have more money than I expected he had.
Q. How much capital does it require to carry on one of these ranches? —A. It will, of course, be in proportion to the stock; and, I think, his fencing cost seven or eight thousand dollars, and his buildings something more. Then add to that the amount of stock.
Q. Who is this Mr. Sherburne?—A. He is the trader at the agency.
Q. How long has he been there?—A. He has been trader there for five years.
Q. Is he licensed by the Interior Department?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is he the only trader there?—A. Yes, sir; he is the sole trader.
Q. Being the only trader there, and the Indians being compiled to purchase of him or go to Arkansas City, does he have any advantage?—A. I do not think he takes any advantage. He is very accommodating.
Q. But he is in a position where he might take advantage?—A. Well, the Department watches over that. He has to furnish a list of prices and pastes it up, and that list is subject to examination. That list covers nearly all the leading or staple articles.
Q. Do you know of any money being paid to any individual to aid in getting these leases?—A. I do not, sir.
Q. Did White Eagle get anything more than the rest?—A. I have never heard an intimation of that.
Q. Did the other chiefs?—A. I have never heard that one of them received a dollar, excepting his share.
Q. Now about the others? I wish you would tell us about the others in the line I have indicated.; Describe each lease.—A. I have a copy of each lease with me.
Q. Well, now hand me the next one and tell us all you know about that, without my asking you?—A. Well, this lease was made by the Otoes with C. M. McClellan. That embraces between 60,000 and 65,000 acres, I think; that is the estimate, and it is for ten years.
Q. What is the rental?—A. Twenty-one hundred dollars, in two semiannual installments.
Q. Was it executed after you went there?—A. Yes, sir; it was exe­cuted after I went there, and the bargain was made afterwards, also, and the whole thing arranged. There was quite a good deal of discussion and some competition. A young man named Warren, who had an open lease before, and who paid so much to the Indians for it, competed with Mr. McClellan. Well, the Indians were not satisfied with the amount he (Warren) paid them, and they wanted to get more, and Mr. McClellan offered a larger amount. There was a contest, and War­ren withdrew, and they made the lease with McClellan. In the first place, they agreed to lease their entire reservation and let the cattle run everywhere to Mr. McClellan.
Q. What amount did they receive under the original arrangement?—A. Five or six hundred dollars. They made that arrangement, and sent for me to see the money paid. I went to the agency and found Mr. McClellan there with his money, and I looked over the lease they had made, but I was not satisfied with their allowing his cattle to run at large. I told them that the Government expected them to go to farm­ing, and that if 3,000 or 4,000 bead of cattle were allowed to run over that reservation they could not do this; and I told them they must make a new lease and require Mr. McClellan to fence it in, else I would not witness it. They then said they would not lease it.

By the Chairman :

Q. And they followed your advice?—A. Yes, sir; they followed my advice. A few days afterward they got together, and Mr. McClellan agreed to fence the land, and the lease was made to him.
Q. What part of the reservation did they lease?—A. They leased the southern portion of the reservation, running east and west, and the boundary lines were marked by certain points known very well to them, but which I did not know. Mr. McClellan fenced it in and paid the money.
Q. Describe the quality of the land leased compared with the other land in the reservation.—A. It leaves out all the land worth anything for cultivation.
Q. You say it takes in the southern portion of the reservation. What is the character of that land?—A. It is broken. On Greasy Creek there might be a few patches of good land, but generally the reservation is broken, high and dry.
Q. Was there nobody else by but you and the lessees when the lease was made?—A. Nobody else, sir.
Q. No other white man?—A. No other white man was about.
Q. Do you know of any communication between him and any offi­cials of the Interior?—A. I do not, sir.
Q. Did you get the advice of the Department in reference to it ?—A. No, sir.
Q. You were under no instructions?—A. No, sir. I found when I got there the lease under consideration, and, of course, I thought with the consent of the Department, hat I never communicated with the Department, nor did I ever receive any instructions, except some general instructions contained in a circular, and the only circular I received was one recently; not long ago, at least.
Q. 'What did it say?—A. It said that it was not deemed advisable for licensed traders to use the influence of their position to secure leases; and if there had been any such cases after that I should have objected on that ground.
Q. Have you reported this lease to the Department, and what has been done in regard to it?—A. I have not reported in regard to any of them.
Q. What means are there when the lease has terminated of ascertaining whether the lessee has fulfilled his part of the bargain? Is there nobody but the Indians who have any knowledge of it ?—A. Well, sir, I took it as my duty to see that the contract is properly and fairly carried out. I witness the payments; I see that the payment is properly made.
Q. Is it always paid in money?—A. Yes, sir; it is made in money at all times.
Q. Have you ever known anything else to be given except money?—A. I know that nothing else has been paid.
Q. Is it best to pay it per capita or spend it for the amelioration of the condition of the Indians and set them up themselves, &c.?—A. Well, sir I think it is better distributed among them.
Q. Why?—A. Because they need it, and I think, on the whole, they get as much out of it as in any other way.
Q. Do they spend it in a bad way, that is, for whisky?—A. No, sir; they never. I will say for my Indians they understand the value of money, and spend it, I think, as prudently as the average white people will do.
Q. Now, sir, take the Pawnees—

By Mr. Harrison:

Q. Is Mr. McCelellan a citizen of the Indian Territory?—A. I think not, sir.

By Mr. Walker:
Q. What is his Christian name?—A. C. M. McClellan.

By Mr. Cameron :

Q. Did he have any cattle prior to the making of the lease?—A. Yes, sir; he had a ranch south of us on the Cherokee outlet, which he sold ant, but rented the Atoe Reservation.

By Mr. Harrison :

Q. You do not know what State Mr. McClellan is a citizen of?—A. I think he is a Southern man. I think he is from Arkansas.
Q. Did he have any associates in the Cherokee lease?—A. I do not think he had. He sold out his interest there.

By the Chairman:

Q. Now we go to the Nez Perces. Tell us about them.—A. The Nez Perces made a lease to a Mr. R. A. Houghten.
Q. Was that made after you came there?—A. It was talked of before I came there, but the agreement was made and the papers drawn after­wards.
Q. How much land is contained in that lease, and it is what portion of the reservation?—A. It embraces the larger portion, probably fifty or sixty thousand acres out of ninety thousand.
Q. What is the character of the land?—A. It takes the larger portion of the unoccupied high prairie land, and it touches the Salt Fork and takes in some timber. It is entirely outside that portion occupied by the Indians.
Q. What does be pay for it?—A. He pays $2,000 a year.
Q. Were you present when it was negotiated?—A. It was negotiated in the State of Kansas. The lease was drawn and acknowledged in that State. I was not present.
Q. What Indians acted in the matter?—A. Joseph, Yellow Bear, Yellow Bull, and Tom Hill, the interpreter, and one or two.others.

By Mr. Harrison :

Q. You say it was executed in Kansas?—A. Yes, sir. They seem to have an idea if made and acknowledged before a court of record, it has more validity than if executed among themselves. They went to Kan­sas and had it done.
Q. You did not see it executed?—A. No, sir; I did not see it exe­cuted.
Q. Did you have any knowledge of the negotiation?—A. None what­ever.
Q. How many payments have been made since you have been there?—A. The first payment was due last July.
Q. Did you witness that payment?—A. Yes, sir; I witnessed that,. The other payment is due now and would have been paid if this investi­gation had not been ordered.
Q. This is paid per capita in money?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. How do they spend it?—A. They use it for their necessities, cloth­ing, food, and other articles.
Q. Did they make a prudent use of it?—A. Yes, sir. They don't buy gew-gaws and spend their money foolishly, but spend it quite judiciously.
Q. Do any of them lay up any money?—A. Well, not many of them have laid up any money, but one or two brought their money to me to be kept in the safe.
Q. Do you know of anybody outside who used any influence in con­nection with obtaining this lease?—A. No, sir; I do not.
Q. You never heard of anything of the kind?—A. No, sir.
Q. Was anything paid to any individual Indian?—A. No, sir; nothing was paid to any individual Indian.
Q. Did you ever hear anything of the kind?—A. I have heard noth­ing of the kind.
Q. Have you beard it suggested around amongst the Indians?—A. Never, sir.
Q. Is there anything about that lease that you would improve, if you had it your own way? Anything that you could improve?—A. No, sir; unless it were that the consideration is too low. Otherwise it is all right.
Q. There is generally a rise in the value of grazing land, is there not?—A. Well, sir, that is on account of attention being called to it. It is not of more value now than before it was talked of, but there is greater demand.
Q. Have they the same inducements to set themselves up as farmers and try to support themselves with these leases as they would have without them?—A. I think so.
Q. You think there would be no advantage in that respect?—A. No, sir; it is a protection to their little crops. One or two things must be done; either fences must be made or the cattle driven out of the Territory. Previous to these leases the cattlemen occupied the land at large and did not pay anything for the use of it, except in a few instances. Nothing was paid except in the Cherokee Strip. They would . go around in the spring and round-up everything they saw. If they found cattle without a brand they took the cattle, and in this way the Indians lost their stock, and they would pay no attention to the complaints of the Indians. I think it is better to appropriate the land to this purpose than to let the Indians keep it, as they do.
Q. Do you mean to rent it?—A. Yes, sir. They have no means to stock it. They have left the outside unoccupied.
Q. Do these cattlemen employ any Indians as herdsmen?—A. No, sir. I think they have a few employéd in making fences.
Q. Where do these men get the posts for their fences?—A. The posts come from the Indian land; that is a part of the contract. It provides that they shall make no waste, and at the end of the lease they release the fences and everything connected with the leases to the Indians.
Q. Does this cutting timber cause any material injury to the land?—A. No, sir; there is plenty of timber and they would not miss what timber the lessees take off.
The Chairman. Now tell us about the Pawnee lease; what is the character of that?
A. Well, its character is like the others. The amount involved is larger.
Q. How much land does it involve?—A. It involves between sixty and seventy thousand or about sixty-five thousand acres; that is the estimate:
Q. That is 65,000 out of how much?—A. Sixty-five thousand out of 283,000, but I have not looked over this matter for a long time.
The Chairman. Well, go on. What was the rental paid ?
A. Three cents an acre, which amounts to $4,000 a year.
Q. What is the term of the lease?—A. The term is ten years. I think the amount paid for the land was $3,545.
Q. Was that lease executed after you came there, and was the contract made after you came there?—A.. The whole transaction was made subsequent to my taking charge.
The Chairman. Well, describe it.
A. There was a good deal of trouble about it, and considerable competition; other parties from Kansas wanted it and talked to me about it. There were two or three parties. I did not interfere in the matter at all, and the different parties had "talks"with the Indians in council, and finally Mr. Bennett seemed to have offered the better terms and they made their final negotiations with him.
Q. Were you aware of the terms offered by the different parties?—A. No, sir.
Q. Have you any means of saying whether, in your judgment, Mr. Bennett's terms were better than those offered by the others?—A. As regards rental the terms were similar, but the Indians seemed to prefer him, because, perhaps, they were better acquainted with him. Finally they all concluded to allow him to take the lease.
Q. Who executed the lease on the part of the Indians?—A. All the chiefs and headmen. It was determined in full and open council. The question was put to a vote and there was almost no opposition.
Q. Was there much discussion about it?—A. Yes, sir; they discussed it for days. At first there was some opposition to leasing at all, but there were only a few of these parties, and finally, when it was put to a vote, only two or three were against it and they have become satisfied.
Q. Does it leave agricultural land enough for them to engage in farming?—A. Yes, sir; it leaves the best land, also a good deal of bad land. It is a poor broken reservation generally.
Q. Well, now, who is Mr. Bennett?—A. He is a cattleman by pro­fession.
Q. Is he a trader on the reservation?—A. No, sir; he is not a trader at all.
Q. Where does he live?—A. He lives in Kansas—Caldwell— And he manages this lease. He is there back and forth. I do not think he stays there.
Q. Has he a partner?—A. Yes, sir; he has a partner, a Mr. Dunn.
Q. Where does he live?— A. I think he lives in Texas.
Q. Does he personally visit this reservation?—A. I can not say, sir; I have never seen him but once or twice.
Q. Mr. Bennett then controls the lease?—A. Yes, sir; it is under his control.
Q. How many men has be under him?—A. I do not know how many men there are under him.
Q. How much stock has he?—A. I do not know, sir.
Q. Does he employ Indians as herdsmen at all?—A. I think not.
Q. Did you witness the payment of the rental?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was it paid in the same manner as the others?—A. It differed in no respect from the others.
Q. Did you know of any negotiations between these parties, these lessees, and the Department here in relation to them?—A. I did not.
Q. Have you known of any official down there having anything to do with it t Do you know of any negotiation between these men and any official at all?—A. No, sir.
Q. Have you heard of any particular Indian getting something?—A. I never have, sir.
Q. You say they are entirely satisfied?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is it your opinion that they got at the time what was a fair rental?—A. Yes, sir; it was about what was the ruling price at the time.;
Q. Do you think higher rental could be obtained now?—A. Yes, sir; I have no doubt of it. Competition, of course, would run the price up, but if they were still unfenced I do not think that would be the case. The fences would run the prices up.
Q. What does it cost to fence this land?—A. One hundred and twenty-five dollars a mile of the kind they have—barbed-wire fences.
Q. About how many miles of fencing are there on this reservation, in the rough?—A. I think Mr. Sherburne has about sixty miles of fencing, but I have no means of knowing the exact number. I desire to say further, Mr. Chairman, that there is another little lease that I did not think of before on the reservation. It was made to Davis and Gillespie. It contains one township and is on the same terms as the others. These parties were employés in the school at the time the lease was made, and I did not think that was consistent with the usage of the Department, and they are not now employés.
Q. Did you know anything about their negotiations?—A. I heard about and I told Mr. Davis that being an employé of the school I would prefer his not doing it. On that the money was given up and then I discharged Mr. Davis from the school. Well, they are holding the lease. They paid the money on just the same terms. I did not think it proper as employés of the Government for them to hold a lease.

By Mr. Harrison:

Q. That is for ten years and at 2 cents an acre?—A. Yes, sir.

By the Chairman :

Q. How are those leases regarded? What is the general talk and opinion?—A. The general opinion of the white people is that the leasing is a good thing for the Indians. That is the unanimous opinion of the white people. Possibly they are more or less interested, bat it is believed to be a good way to dispose of the land that they do not and cannot occupy, and there are some incidental advantages. For instance, it is a protection to their crops and stock.
Q. Do you think that so far as your Indians are concerned it is better to pay this money per capita or to the agent to be paid according to his discretion ?—A. I think it is decidedly the better to pay it to the Indians. We have been keeping them like infants too long. I think that some of the payments that are now made by the Government in goods would be better if paid in money. It contributes to self-reliance. They cannot get what they really need and what is better for them.

By Mr. Harrison :

Q. Do you not think it would be better to systemize in some way this matter ? In some way that would induce competition?—A. Yes, sir; I think it would be better if the matter was settled in some way so that the men who hold the leases would know what they are doing. In the present state of uncertainty them are some disadvantages.
Q. Do you not think it advisable that there should be some supervision on the part of the Government over the Indians in making these leases rather than leaving the negotiation directly to these white men?—A. I think they ought to have some advice. If my Indians were going to make a lease that I did not think right I would advise them against it. Some individuals wanted to make a lease in the northwest corner of the reservation, two miles wide and six long on the north line. I advised them that they ought not to do it, that they wanted that land for their own use, and they have not made the lease, and I do not think I will permit them to make it. I think every agent should take that much interest in the matter.
Q. Is that a part of your instructions?—A. No, sir; we have no in­structions from the Department upon the subject.
Q. So far as you have interested yourself you only interfered as a friend to the Indians?—A. That is all, sir.
Q. If they should make these leases without your advice, would you witness them ?—A: I do not think I would, sir. If I thought it was not right I would not permit it. The agent's advice is almost invariably taken by the Indians.

By the Chairman :

Q. How far are you from Cheyenne and Arapahoes' reservation?—A Some 100 miles east of it.
Q. Do you know anything of the condition of that agency?—A. No, sir; they are a different character of Indians from those I have charge of.
By Mr. Cameron :

Q. Why was it that you did not report during the pendency of these negotiations?—A. I supposed it was a matter all along understood and was nothing new. Leases had been made on other reservations, such as the Osage and some other reservations, and I thought it was understood by all parties.


Return To Testimony Index.
This site may be freely linked, but not duplicated without consent.
All rights reserved. Commercial use of material within this site is prohibited.
The copyright (s) on this page must appear on all copied and/or printed material.
© 2024 by C.S.L.S.A. Site Coordinator