Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs

Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs - 1885

Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs 1885
JOHN SANDERS. Washington, D. C., February 2, 1885. JOHN SANDERS sworn and examined. By the Chairman : Question. What is your full name?—Answer. John Sanders. Q. Do you belong to the Cherokee Nation?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Are you a Cherokee by birth?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you ever held any office under the Cherokee government?—A. I was a member of the Cherokee council. Q. How long were you a member of the Cherokee council?—A. I was four years a member of the council. Q. What council do you refer to? Was it the council that passed the law giving this lease to the Cherokee Strip Live Stock Association?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you vote for the law?—A. No, sir; I voted against it. Q. Were you opposed to leasing to anybody?—A. No, sir; I was only opposed to leasing to these parties under those conditions. Q. Why?—A. Because I thought there could be a better arrangement made. Q. In what respect?—A. I thought we could get more money. Q. Did you believe in giving this to the highest bidder?—A. Yes, sir; I believed that we ought to have given it to the highest bidder. Q. How much majority did this bill get which gave this lease to the Cherokee Strip Live Stock Association?—A. I cannot recollect; but think it was about three majority; that is as near as I can recollect. Q. Did anybody try to influence your vote?—A. Well, I believe they did. Q. Who tried to influence your vote?—A. Sam Downing. Q. What did he say?—A. He said that if I would work for the bill which gave the lease to these parties for $100,000 he would give me $400. Q. Was he a member of the Cherokee council?—A. He was a member of the house. Q. He said he would give you $400 if you voted for this bill?—A. Yes, sir. Q. What did you tell him?—A. I told him that I did not want his money. Q. Do you know of anybody else being offered any money?—A. No, sir. Q. Was anybody present at this interview?—A. No, sir. Q. How long was this before the bill passed?—A. It was about two days before the bill passed. Q. Do you know whether he offered anybody else anything?—A. No, sir. Q. Did he tell you where he got the money?—A. No, sir. I did not ask him any particulars about it. Q. You would not accept this money?—A. No, sir. I told him he had better go to some one else if he wanted that kind of a bill to pass. Q. Do you know anything about how they induced the chief to sign this bill?—A. No, sir. Q. How do the Cherokee people feel about it now?—A. They do not seem to say much about it.. Q. If they had it to do again would they do the same thing?—A. I do not know sir. Q. What is your opinion?—A. Well, sir, I would have to get the consent of the Cherokee people before I knew what they would do. Q. Who was there trying to get this lease for $100,000? Who was advocating it outside the council?—A. Well, I do not know any particular party who was there. Q. Where were you when Mr. Downing offered you this money?—A. I was in the capitol square, at Tahlequah. Q. What time of day was it?—A. It was, I believe, in the evening. Q. Was the council then in session?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Were they considering this bill, or something else?—A. I think they were considering something else. Q. Was there a good deal of opposition to the bill?—A. Yes, sir; there was right smart of opposition. Q. Did anybody in the council change their minds and come over to the bill that were opposed to, it when the discussion began?—I have never heard of anything of the kind. Q. Did anybody in the council who were opposed to it change their minds and afterwards support it?—A. I could not tell you anything about it. I know that the bill came up, and I thought that we had a majority, but the land was leased for that amount of money. They out voted us in the council. Q. By how much majority?—A. Well. I think there were forty-two members in the whole council, but by what majority the bill passed I could not state accurately. I know that I was present and voted against it. Q. Who is this Mr. Downing you speak of?—A. He is a son of one of our chiefs. Q. He is dead, is he not?—A. Yes, sir. Q. How long did he live after the lease was obtained?—A. I do not recollect, but I should think something near about a year. Q. Do you think this is a good way to lease the land? Do you think it is a good thing to lease the land or not? Is this particular lease a good thing?—A. I do not know what to think about it now. Many of the Cherokee Indians think this lease was not all right. Q. What do you think?—A. I do not think it was right. Q. Did you want to rent this land to your own people rather than to white men?—A. Yes, sir. Q. That was your view of it?—A. Yes, sir. Q. You thought it was better to rent to your own people?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Are any of your people engaged in herding cattle themselves?—A. I do not know that any of them are. Q. Why not. Why do they not herd cattle as white men do?—A. A great many of our people are not able to own many cattle; they are too poor. Q. Why do not your people engage in the cattle business themselves?—A. I do not know, sir. Q. Do you know Major Drumm?—A. No, sir. Q. Where is he from?—A. I do not know. Q. Do you know that he is one of the men who went to Tahlequah to get this lease?—A. No, sir. Q. You do not know him?—A. No, sir. Q. Do you know Mr. Eldred?—A. No, sir. Q. You do not know any of these parties?—A. No, sir. Q. They had no conversation with you?—A. No, sir; they let me alone. Q. After this man offered you this money, and you told him to go somewhere else, did any one else approach you on the subject?—A. No, sir. Q. Did you, yourself, make any speech upon this subject?—A. No, sir; I am not a speech-maker, but I voted against it. Q. Do you think any members, talked against it in the council?—A. No, sir; do not believe that they did. Q. Did some folks talk for it?—A. I do not believe that there were any speeches made at all. They made a motion and put it right through. Q. You have an upper house, have you not, to your legislature?—A. Yes, sir; we have an upper house. It is called the senate. Q. How many members compose the senate?—A. Eighteen members. Q. Did the bill pass the senate before it passed the lower body?—AYes, sir. Q. Did they talk it over before it passed?—A. I do not know, sir. Q. Was there a good deal of excitement about it?—A. Yes, sir; they talked pretty lively about it. Q. Which side talked the loudest?—A. I believe the $100,000 men talked the loudest. Q. Were they pretty busy?—A. Well, sir, it seemed that they were all in a muss about the matter. Q. Do you think you have told us everything about it?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know of any one to whom money was offered?—A. No, sir. Q, Did you hear that any one else had money offered to him?—A. No, sir. Q. You never heard that any one else had anything offered to him?—A. No, sir. Q. You are sure about.that?—A. Yes, sir; I believe I am sure about that. Q. What did the Cherokees say about this bill after it was passed?—A. They did not say much about it, except that the other parties had outvoted them in getting the bill. Q. Did you hear anybody say that they were trying to get Chief Bushyhead to veto the bill?—A. I do not believe I heard anything of the kind. Q. Was the chief present at the time?—A. Yes, sir; I believe he was in his office. Q. Was he present in the council at the time the bill passed?—A. No, sir; he was not present at the council. I have never seen him In the council. Q. Where is his office?—A. His office is right above the senate hall. Q. It is in the same building in which the council meets?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Is there any trouble between your people and these white men who now occupy the laud?—A. No, sir; I have not heard of any. Q. What are you going to do with the money for this lease when you get it?—A. I believe that after three years have expired they are going to pay it out per capita. Q. Will you have a good time then?—A. I expect the Cherokees will have a good time as long as the money lasts. Q. Is that a good way to spend it?—A. I could not tell you. Q. Do you think that paying it out per capita is better than devoting it to schools or something of that kind?—A. Well, sir, it looks like we have enough schools now. Q. You think there are enough schools in the Cherokee Nation?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you good roads in your country to travel on?—A. Well, sir, our roads are tolerably fair. Q. Are they as good as you want?—A. Yes, sir; they are good enough to travel on. They do not make as good roads in our country as you have here, but they are good enough for our people to travel on. Q. Then you do not need this money for any public improvements down there?—A. I do not know about that. Q. You think your people will have a good time as long as the money lasts?—A. Yes, sir. Return To Testimony Index.
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Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs
1885

JOHN SANDERS.

Washington, D. C., February 2, 1885.

JOHN SANDERS sworn and examined.
By the Chairman :

Question. What is your full name?—Answer. John Sanders.
Q. Do you belong to the Cherokee Nation?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you a Cherokee by birth?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever held any office under the Cherokee government?—A. I was a member of the Cherokee council.
Q. How long were you a member of the Cherokee council?—A. I was four years a member of the council.
Q. What council do you refer to? Was it the council that passed the law giving this lease to the Cherokee Strip Live Stock Association?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you vote for the law?—A. No, sir; I voted against it.
Q. Were you opposed to leasing to anybody?—A. No, sir; I was only opposed to leasing to these parties under those conditions.
Q. Why?—A. Because I thought there could be a better arrangement made.
Q. In what respect?—A. I thought we could get more money.
Q. Did you believe in giving this to the highest bidder?—A. Yes, sir; I believed that we ought to have given it to the highest bidder.
Q. How much majority did this bill get which gave this lease to the Cherokee Strip Live Stock Association?—A. I cannot recollect; but think it was about three majority; that is as near as I can recollect.
Q. Did anybody try to influence your vote?—A. Well, I believe they did.
Q. Who tried to influence your vote?—A. Sam Downing.
Q. What did he say?—A. He said that if I would work for the bill which gave the lease to these parties for $100,000 he would give me $400.
Q. Was he a member of the Cherokee council?—A. He was a member of the house.
Q. He said he would give you $400 if you voted for this bill?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you tell him?—A. I told him that I did not want his money.
Q. Do you know of anybody else being offered any money?—A. No, sir.
Q. Was anybody present at this interview?—A. No, sir.
Q. How long was this before the bill passed?—A. It was about two days before the bill passed.
Q. Do you know whether he offered anybody else anything?—A. No, sir.
Q. Did he tell you where he got the money?—A. No, sir. I did not ask him any particulars about it.
Q. You would not accept this money?—A. No, sir. I told him he had better go to some one else if he wanted that kind of a bill to pass.
Q. Do you know anything about how they induced the chief to sign this bill?—A. No, sir.
Q. How do the Cherokee people feel about it now?—A. They do not seem to say much about it..
Q. If they had it to do again would they do the same thing?—A. I do not know sir.
Q. What is your opinion?—A. Well, sir, I would have to get the consent of the Cherokee people before I knew what they would do.
Q. Who was there trying to get this lease for $100,000? Who was advocating it outside the council?—A. Well, I do not know any particular party who was there.
Q. Where were you when Mr. Downing offered you this money?—A. I was in the capitol square, at Tahlequah.
Q. What time of day was it?—A. It was, I believe, in the evening.
Q. Was the council then in session?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were they considering this bill, or something else?—A. I think they were considering something else.
Q. Was there a good deal of opposition to the bill?—A. Yes, sir; there was right smart of opposition.
Q. Did anybody in the council change their minds and come over to the bill that were opposed to, it when the discussion began?—I have never heard of anything of the kind.
Q. Did anybody in the council who were opposed to it change their minds and afterwards support it?—A. I could not tell you anything about it. I know that the bill came up, and I thought that we had a majority, but the land was leased for that amount of money. They out voted us in the council.
Q. By how much majority?—A. Well. I think there were forty-two members in the whole council, but by what majority the bill passed I could not state accurately. I know that I was present and voted against it.
Q. Who is this Mr. Downing you speak of?—A. He is a son of one of our chiefs.
Q. He is dead, is he not?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long did he live after the lease was obtained?—A. I do not recollect, but I should think something near about a year.
Q. Do you think this is a good way to lease the land? Do you think it is a good thing to lease the land or not? Is this particular lease a good thing?—A. I do not know what to think about it now. Many of the Cherokee Indians think this lease was not all right.
Q. What do you think?—A. I do not think it was right.
Q. Did you want to rent this land to your own people rather than to white men?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was your view of it?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. You thought it was better to rent to your own people?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are any of your people engaged in herding cattle themselves?—A. I do not know that any of them are.
Q. Why not. Why do they not herd cattle as white men do?—A. A great many of our people are not able to own many cattle; they are too poor.
Q. Why do not your people engage in the cattle business themselves?—A. I do not know, sir.
Q. Do you know Major Drumm?—A. No, sir.
Q. Where is he from?—A. I do not know.
Q. Do you know that he is one of the men who went to Tahlequah to get this lease?—A. No, sir.
Q. You do not know him?—A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know Mr. Eldred?—A. No, sir.
Q. You do not know any of these parties?—A. No, sir.
Q. They had no conversation with you?—A. No, sir; they let me alone.
Q. After this man offered you this money, and you told him to go somewhere else, did any one else approach you on the subject?—A. No, sir.
Q. Did you, yourself, make any speech upon this subject?—A. No, sir; I am not a speech-maker, but I voted against it.
Q. Do you think any members, talked against it in the council?—A. No, sir; do not believe that they did.
Q. Did some folks talk for it?—A. I do not believe that there were any speeches made at all. They made a motion and put it right through.
Q. You have an upper house, have you not, to your legislature?—A. Yes, sir; we have an upper house. It is called the senate.
Q. How many members compose the senate?—A. Eighteen members.
Q. Did the bill pass the senate before it passed the lower body?—AYes, sir.
Q. Did they talk it over before it passed?—A. I do not know, sir.
Q. Was there a good deal of excitement about it?—A. Yes, sir; they talked pretty lively about it.
Q. Which side talked the loudest?—A. I believe the $100,000 men talked the loudest.
Q. Were they pretty busy?—A. Well, sir, it seemed that they were all in a muss about the matter.
Q. Do you think you have told us everything about it?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know of any one to whom money was offered?—A. No, sir.
Q, Did you hear that any one else had money offered to him?—A. No, sir.
Q. You never heard that any one else had anything offered to him?—A. No, sir.
Q. You are sure about.that?—A. Yes, sir; I believe I am sure about that.
Q. What did the Cherokees say about this bill after it was passed?—A. They did not say much about it, except that the other parties had outvoted them in getting the bill.
Q. Did you hear anybody say that they were trying to get Chief Bushyhead to veto the bill?—A. I do not believe I heard anything of the kind.
Q. Was the chief present at the time?—A. Yes, sir; I believe he was in his office.
Q. Was he present in the council at the time the bill passed?—A. No, sir; he was not present at the council. I have never seen him In the council.
Q. Where is his office?—A. His office is right above the senate hall.
Q. It is in the same building in which the council meets?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is there any trouble between your people and these white men who now occupy the laud?—A. No, sir; I have not heard of any.
Q. What are you going to do with the money for this lease when you get it?—A. I believe that after three years have expired they are going to pay it out per capita.
Q. Will you have a good time then?—A. I expect the Cherokees will have a good time as long as the money lasts.
Q. Is that a good way to spend it?—A. I could not tell you.
Q. Do you think that paying it out per capita is better than devoting it to schools or something of that kind?—A. Well, sir, it looks like we have enough schools now.
Q. You think there are enough schools in the Cherokee Nation?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you good roads in your country to travel on?—A. Well, sir, our roads are tolerably fair.
Q. Are they as good as you want?—A. Yes, sir; they are good enough to travel on. They do not make as good roads in our country as you have here, but they are good enough for our people to travel on.
Q. Then you do not need this money for any public improvements down there?—A. I do not know about that.
Q. You think your people will have a good time as long as the money lasts?—A. Yes, sir.

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All rights reserved. Commercial use of material within this site is prohibited.
The copyright (s) on this page must appear on all copied and/or printed material.
© 2024 by C.S.L.S.A. Site Coordinator