Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs

Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs - 1885

Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs 1885
JOHN Q TUFTS. John Q Tufts sworn and examined. By the Chairman : Question. You are the agent at the Union Agency, Indian Territory?—Answer. Yes, sir. Q. What does that constitute?—A. The five civilized tribes, the Cherokees, Creeks, Seminoles, Chickasaws, and Choctaws. Q. How long have you been agent of these tribes?—A. Nearly six years. Q. Where is your agency located?—A. At Muscogee. Q. How far is that from the Cherokee Strip?—A. About 140 or 150 miles. Q. Have you any knowledge of any of the land which the Cherokees have leased to cattlemen for grazing purposes?—A. The lands on the Cherokee Strip have been leased. Q. Has any other part of the Cherokee lands been leased?—A. No, sir; there has been no lease on their lands proper. Q. It is the Cherokee Strip alone to which these leases apply?—A. Yes, sir. Q. What knowledge, if any, have you of these leases and the negotiations in connection with them?—A. I have no official knowledge whatever. The Department has recognized that these Indians have the right to transact their own business without our interference. It is the constant instruction in all matters pertaining to their business. By Mr. Ingalls: Q. That applies to the five civilized tribes?—A. Yes, sir. Q. And they are the Cherokees, Creeks, Seminoles, Chickasaws, and Choctaws?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Describe, before further passing on, the area and location of the Cherokee Strip?—A. This [indicating on map) is known as the Cherokee strip. It begins in the northwest corner of the Indian Territory and goes 56 miles south, then east until it strikes the Pawnees. It originally extended to the 96th meridian, but the Government granted some land here to the Osages and Pawnees. Q. What is the distance from the eastern line to the western line?—A. It was to the 100th meridian, and is about 200 miles long. Q. It is a rectangle 56 by 200?—A. Yes, sir; except what was taken out for the purpose of locating friendly Indians; it runs from 97 to 100, and is 56 miles wide. The whole of that land was covered by treaty by which these Cherokees agreed to let us have it, as we wanted it. By Mr. Harrison Q. Did that apply to the whole strip?—A. It applied to all the lands on the west of the Cherokees. By Mr. Ingalls: Q. A certain portion of the Cherokee lauds were released to the United States Government in trust, with the consent of the Cherokees, for the location of friendly tribes?—A. Yes, sir. By the Chairman : Q. For which the Government was to pay a certain price as it was used?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Does that apply to all of this strip?—A. It applies to everything west of 96 as far as 100; and the Government has appropriated for the benefit of the Cherokee Nation so much per are for the land these Indians have settled upon; and the balance is left as the treaty made it. Q. The balance is subject to those leases?—A. It is all under one lease. By Mr. Ingalls: Q. This land was released by the Cherokees to the Government of the United States upon the conditions I have mentioned?—A. Yes, sir. By the Chairman : Q. Was that under the treaty of 1866?—A. I think the Cherokees made the release before that. The Seminoles made a treaty in 1866 in regard to their land. I think the Cherokees made their treaty before that time. Q. Are these lands now under one lease?—A. Yes, sir; they are under one lease. Q. How many acres are there?—A. I don't remember how many acres there are. Q. Have you any personal knowledge of that lease?—A. None whatever. Only mere talk. I have no official knowledge whatever in regard to it. Q. Have you any knowledge of the manner of leasing this land?—A. No, sir; I was not present at the council, or when any of the negotiations were made. Q. Do you know the parties to the lease?—A. I know the parties by reputation, and I have met a few of them. Q. Do you know the terms of the lease?—A. No, sir. Q. Have you a copy of the lease?—A.;I have no copy here; but there is a printed copy in the report called for from the Secretary of the Interior. Q. A copy of the lease will come in that report from the Department?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know the lessees by name?—A. I know a few of them. Q. Will you state the names of those you know?—A. Mr. Miller, Mr. Davis, Major Drumm (I don't know his given name), and Mr. Bennett, whose given name I don't know, but I think he is one of the parties. Q. That Cherokee Strip is leased to these parties, one or two of whom you have already named?—A. Yes, sir. Q. What is the term of the lease?—A. It is for five years, at $100,000 a year. Q. Is it divided?—A. I believe it is; that is, I understand the lessees have divided it among themselves. Q. Is it inclosed?—A. A part of it was inclosed when I was there, but I don't know whether it is now or not—I think it is all in fence, though. They have a large map of their reservation—A well executed map of the lease and of the parties occupying the land. Q. Do you know anything about how it was negotiated?—A. No, sir, I do not. Q. Where was it negotiated?—A. It was done by an act of the Cherokee council, at a special session in June, 1883. This act authorized some one to negotiate it. Q. Did the act provide for a direct lease to these parties s—A. Yes, sir; I think so. By Mr. Harrison: Q. Is there not a copy of that lease in the report of the Secretary?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know of any Government official being concerned in the matter?—A. There were no Government officials about, to my knowledge. Q. Have you heard among the the Indians anything of the kind?—A. No, sir. Q. Have you heard of the payment of any money otherwise than for the rental?—A. Only from common report. After the council adjourned parties who wanted leases and were disappointed were talking about corruption, but nothing definite was ascertained. Q. These were parties who were seeking, but did not get the leases ?—A. Yes, sir. Q. What was the rumor?—A. They claimed that money had been used at Talequah. Q. Did they make any specific charges?—A. None whatever; I could not get enough out of it to make a report of the facts to the Department. Q. They were only general charges?—A. Yes, sir; I tried to get something definite, but could not. Q. Did you ever hear of Bushyhead's receiving any money at all?—A. It was claimed that the council, without naming persons, had been paid something. Q. Of whom was the council composed?—A. The council was composed of Cherokees, regularly elected. Q. How large a body is it?—A. There are twenty-two senators and about double that number of members of the house. Q. That is the council ?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Bushyhead is the chief of the nation, is he not?—A. Yes, sir; he is the chief, regularly elected. Q. Does he have a veto?—A. He has the same power that a governor has in a State. Q. How is this rental paid?—A. I don't know; I only know that on two occasions the parties who made the lease stopped at Muscogee on their way through with $50,000 for the Indians. It is not my duty to interfere, except when I discover something wrong, and then I must re port the fact. There are thirty or forty thousand white people in the Territory and sixty thousand Indians, and we have no law but that which comes from the Indian Office. In case of trouble between the whites and the Indians the agent must put the whites out. That is the business of the agent. Q. Do you think the rental paid is a fair one?—A. I think it was a fair rental at the time the lease was made, but there has been more demand for leases since, and I think a higher price could now be obtained. By Mr. Harrison: Q. How much higher?—A. I could not estimate that ; but I think $50,000 more could be had. It would come pretty high to the present lessees, because they have fenced it in. In making this lease the sympathy was undoubtedly with the parties to whom the lease was made, for the reason that for several years before these parties had cattle upon the land, and paid annual taxes. Then there was a large number of cattlemen who did not pay anything. So, naturally, the sympathy was for those who did pay, and that led to the lease. Q. Were there any outside parties at the council?—A. I know of no responsible parties being present. Q. What change has this lease made in the actual occupancy of the land?—A. Under the system which prevailed before the lease was made the Indians got $40,000 a year. Now they get $100,000. Q. Is all of the strip used for grazing?—A. Yes, sir; there is no farming on the strip that I know of. Q. Your understanding is, that the land was not separated, but that the lessees divided it among themselves?—A. That was my understanding. It may be that some leases were made to other parties, but my understanding was that all who had leases, and had paid the taxes to the Cherokee Nation, were parties to this lease. Q. And then they divided the land and the rental among themselves?—A. That was my understanding, but they may have let other parties in. Q. How many persons were concerned in it?—A. There were a large number. Q. Nobody has ever questioned the right of the Cherokees to make the lease?—A. I have. no doubt that they have that right. Q. It was the act of the Cherokees in their national capacity, and was discussed for a long time in their legislative bodies, was it not?—A. Yes, sir. Q. And approved by their executive officers?—A. Yes, sir. Q. There was no question as to their understanding it?—A. No, sir; not only the council understood it, but the nation at large. Q. It was a matter of public interest debated for a long time, and finally adopted?—A. Yes, sir; it was. Q. And they receive for this land $100,000 in lieu of $40,000 which they previously received?—A. Yes, sir. By the Chairman : Q. This lease excludes from occupancy those parties who were in the habit of occupying the land and not paying anything for it?—A. Yes, sir. Q. These parties have fenced their land, and it excludes everybody else who don't pay taxes?—A. Yes, sir; that is the condition of the matter, and in that way the Indians realize more than double for their land. Before the leases were made we were called upon for troops to go and put off parties who would not pay the taxes. By Mr. Harrison: Q. How many years does this lease run?—A. It runs for five years. By Mr. Cameron : Q. How many cattle are there on this lease?—A. I could not tell how many there are on it, but it is nearly occupied to its full capacity—ten acres to the steer, or something of that kind. Q. Who were these parties who charged corruption?—A. I could not tell you their names; I only questioned them at Muscogee. By Mr. Ingalls: Q. Were they persons who had applied for leases and failed to get them?—A. Yes, sir. Q. They charged corruption on the part of the men who succeeded?—A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Gorman: Q. Could you furnish the names of the parties who made that charge?—A. Perhaps I could get the names. Q. Don't you recollect the names of any of them?—A. I do not; if I ever knew them I have forgotten them. I did not think there was anything in it at all. By Mr. Harrison: Q. Did you say that you did not know of any officer of the Government who had any direct or indirect interest in this lease?—A. None whatever. Q. Is Major Dunn an Army officer?—A. No, sir; he is not. By Mr. Gorman: Q. Did you report the story of these parties to the Department?—A. No, sir; there was nothing to make a report on. Q. Did you make an investigation at the timel—A. I only questioned the parties themselves. Q. You can't remember the names of any of them, though?—A. No, sir. By the Chairman : Q. Can you get the names now and-furnish them to the committee—A. Parties who were at the council may know them. By Mr. Gorman: Q. Did you make any special investigation into the charges at the time?—A. I only talked with the parties who made the charges, and they could not give me any points—the names of any persons, or anything to go on. Q. Was that the only report of corruption which you heard?—A. Yes, sir; that was the only report I heard. They were evidently very much excited about it, having just come from the council at Talequah. I think I can ascertain their names. Q. Will you furnish the committee with the names if you get them ?—A. Yes, sir; I will. Return To Testimony Index.
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Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs
1885

JOHN Q TUFTS.

John Q Tufts sworn and examined.
By the Chairman :
Question. You are the agent at the Union Agency, Indian Territory?—Answer. Yes, sir.
Q. What does that constitute?—A. The five civilized tribes, the Cherokees, Creeks, Seminoles, Chickasaws, and Choctaws.
Q. How long have you been agent of these tribes?—A. Nearly six years.
Q. Where is your agency located?—A. At Muscogee.
Q. How far is that from the Cherokee Strip?—A. About 140 or 150 miles.
Q. Have you any knowledge of any of the land which the Cherokees have leased to cattlemen for grazing purposes?—A. The lands on the Cherokee Strip have been leased.
Q. Has any other part of the Cherokee lands been leased?—A. No, sir; there has been no lease on their lands proper.
Q. It is the Cherokee Strip alone to which these leases apply?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. What knowledge, if any, have you of these leases and the negotiations in connection with them?—A. I have no official knowledge whatever. The Department has recognized that these Indians have the right to transact their own business without our interference. It is the constant instruction in all matters pertaining to their business.

By Mr. Ingalls:

Q. That applies to the five civilized tribes?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they are the Cherokees, Creeks, Seminoles, Chickasaws, and Choctaws?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Describe, before further passing on, the area and location of the Cherokee Strip?—A. This [indicating on map) is known as the Cherokee strip. It begins in the northwest corner of the Indian Territory and goes 56 miles south, then east until it strikes the Pawnees. It originally extended to the 96th meridian, but the Government granted some land here to the Osages and Pawnees.
Q. What is the distance from the eastern line to the western line?—A. It was to the 100th meridian, and is about 200 miles long.
Q. It is a rectangle 56 by 200?—A. Yes, sir; except what was taken out for the purpose of locating friendly Indians; it runs from 97 to 100, and is 56 miles wide. The whole of that land was covered by treaty by which these Cherokees agreed to let us have it, as we wanted it.

By Mr. Harrison

Q. Did that apply to the whole strip?—A. It applied to all the lands on the west of the Cherokees.

By Mr. Ingalls:

Q. A certain portion of the Cherokee lauds were released to the United States Government in trust, with the consent of the Cherokees, for the location of friendly tribes?—A. Yes, sir.

By the Chairman :

Q. For which the Government was to pay a certain price as it was used?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does that apply to all of this strip?—A. It applies to everything west of 96 as far as 100; and the Government has appropriated for the benefit of the Cherokee Nation so much per are for the land these Indians have settled upon; and the balance is left as the treaty made it.
Q. The balance is subject to those leases?—A. It is all under one lease.

By Mr. Ingalls:

Q. This land was released by the Cherokees to the Government of the United States upon the conditions I have mentioned?—A. Yes, sir.

By the Chairman :

Q. Was that under the treaty of 1866?—A. I think the Cherokees made the release before that. The Seminoles made a treaty in 1866 in regard to their land. I think the Cherokees made their treaty before that time.
Q. Are these lands now under one lease?—A. Yes, sir; they are under one lease.
Q. How many acres are there?—A. I don't remember how many acres there are.
Q. Have you any personal knowledge of that lease?—A. None whatever. Only mere talk. I have no official knowledge whatever in regard to it.
Q. Have you any knowledge of the manner of leasing this land?—A. No, sir; I was not present at the council, or when any of the negotiations were made.
Q. Do you know the parties to the lease?—A. I know the parties by reputation, and I have met a few of them.
Q. Do you know the terms of the lease?—A. No, sir.
Q. Have you a copy of the lease?—A.;I have no copy here; but there is a printed copy in the report called for from the Secretary of the Interior.
Q. A copy of the lease will come in that report from the Department?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know the lessees by name?—A. I know a few of them.
Q. Will you state the names of those you know?—A. Mr. Miller, Mr. Davis, Major Drumm (I don't know his given name), and Mr. Bennett, whose given name I don't know, but I think he is one of the parties.
Q. That Cherokee Strip is leased to these parties, one or two of whom you have already named?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is the term of the lease?—A. It is for five years, at $100,000 a year.
Q. Is it divided?—A. I believe it is; that is, I understand the lessees have divided it among themselves.
Q. Is it inclosed?—A. A part of it was inclosed when I was there, but I don't know whether it is now or not—I think it is all in fence, though. They have a large map of their reservation—A well executed map of the lease and of the parties occupying the land.
Q. Do you know anything about how it was negotiated?—A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. Where was it negotiated?—A. It was done by an act of the Cherokee council, at a special session in June, 1883. This act authorized some one to negotiate it.
Q. Did the act provide for a direct lease to these parties s—A. Yes, sir; I think so.

By Mr. Harrison:

Q. Is there not a copy of that lease in the report of the Secretary?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know of any Government official being concerned in the matter?—A. There were no Government officials about, to my knowledge.
Q. Have you heard among the the Indians anything of the kind?—A. No, sir.
Q. Have you heard of the payment of any money otherwise than for the rental?—A. Only from common report. After the council adjourned parties who wanted leases and were disappointed were talking about corruption, but nothing definite was ascertained.
Q. These were parties who were seeking, but did not get the leases ?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was the rumor?—A. They claimed that money had been used at Talequah.
Q. Did they make any specific charges?—A. None whatever; I could not get enough out of it to make a report of the facts to the Department.
Q. They were only general charges?—A. Yes, sir; I tried to get something definite, but could not.
Q. Did you ever hear of Bushyhead's receiving any money at all?—A. It was claimed that the council, without naming persons, had been paid something.
Q. Of whom was the council composed?—A. The council was composed of Cherokees, regularly elected.
Q. How large a body is it?—A. There are twenty-two senators and about double that number of members of the house.
Q. That is the council ?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Bushyhead is the chief of the nation, is he not?—A. Yes, sir; he is the chief, regularly elected.
Q. Does he have a veto?—A. He has the same power that a governor has in a State.
Q. How is this rental paid?—A. I don't know; I only know that on two occasions the parties who made the lease stopped at Muscogee on their way through with $50,000 for the Indians. It is not my duty to interfere, except when I discover something wrong, and then I must re port the fact. There are thirty or forty thousand white people in the Territory and sixty thousand Indians, and we have no law but that which comes from the Indian Office. In case of trouble between the whites and the Indians the agent must put the whites out. That is the business of the agent.
Q. Do you think the rental paid is a fair one?—A. I think it was a fair rental at the time the lease was made, but there has been more demand for leases since, and I think a higher price could now be obtained.

By Mr. Harrison:

Q. How much higher?—A. I could not estimate that ; but I think $50,000 more could be had. It would come pretty high to the present lessees, because they have fenced it in. In making this lease the sympathy was undoubtedly with the parties to whom the lease was made, for the reason that for several years before these parties had cattle upon the land, and paid annual taxes. Then there was a large number of cattlemen who did not pay anything. So, naturally, the sympathy was for those who did pay, and that led to the lease.
Q. Were there any outside parties at the council?—A. I know of no responsible parties being present.
Q. What change has this lease made in the actual occupancy of the land?—A. Under the system which prevailed before the lease was made the Indians got $40,000 a year. Now they get $100,000.
Q. Is all of the strip used for grazing?—A. Yes, sir; there is no farming on the strip that I know of.
Q. Your understanding is, that the land was not separated, but that the lessees divided it among themselves?—A. That was my understanding. It may be that some leases were made to other parties, but my understanding was that all who had leases, and had paid the taxes to the Cherokee Nation, were parties to this lease.
Q. And then they divided the land and the rental among themselves?—A. That was my understanding, but they may have let other parties in.
Q. How many persons were concerned in it?—A. There were a large number.
Q. Nobody has ever questioned the right of the Cherokees to make the lease?—A. I have. no doubt that they have that right.
Q. It was the act of the Cherokees in their national capacity, and was discussed for a long time in their legislative bodies, was it not?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. And approved by their executive officers?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. There was no question as to their understanding it?—A. No, sir; not only the council understood it, but the nation at large.
Q. It was a matter of public interest debated for a long time, and finally adopted?—A. Yes, sir; it was.
Q. And they receive for this land $100,000 in lieu of $40,000 which they previously received?—A. Yes, sir.

By the Chairman :

Q. This lease excludes from occupancy those parties who were in the habit of occupying the land and not paying anything for it?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. These parties have fenced their land, and it excludes everybody else who don't pay taxes?—A. Yes, sir; that is the condition of the matter, and in that way the Indians realize more than double for their land. Before the leases were made we were called upon for troops to go and put off parties who would not pay the taxes.

By Mr. Harrison:

Q. How many years does this lease run?—A. It runs for five years.

By Mr. Cameron :

Q. How many cattle are there on this lease?—A. I could not tell how many there are on it, but it is nearly occupied to its full capacity—ten acres to the steer, or something of that kind.

Q. Who were these parties who charged corruption?—A. I could not tell you their names; I only questioned them at Muscogee.

By Mr. Ingalls:

Q. Were they persons who had applied for leases and failed to get them?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. They charged corruption on the part of the men who succeeded?—A. Yes, sir.

By Mr. Gorman:

Q. Could you furnish the names of the parties who made that charge?—A. Perhaps I could get the names.
Q. Don't you recollect the names of any of them?—A. I do not; if I ever knew them I have forgotten them. I did not think there was anything in it at all.

By Mr. Harrison:

Q. Did you say that you did not know of any officer of the Government who had any direct or indirect interest in this lease?—A. None whatever.
Q. Is Major Dunn an Army officer?—A. No, sir; he is not.

By Mr. Gorman:

Q. Did you report the story of these parties to the Department?—A. No, sir; there was nothing to make a report on.
Q. Did you make an investigation at the timel—A. I only questioned the parties themselves.
Q. You can't remember the names of any of them, though?—A. No, sir.

By the Chairman :

Q. Can you get the names now and-furnish them to the committee—A. Parties who were at the council may know them.

By Mr. Gorman:

Q. Did you make any special investigation into the charges at the time?—A. I only talked with the parties who made the charges, and they could not give me any points—the names of any persons, or anything to go on.
Q. Was that the only report of corruption which you heard?—A. Yes, sir; that was the only report I heard. They were evidently very much excited about it, having just come from the council at Talequah. I think I can ascertain their names.
Q. Will you furnish the committee with the names if you get them ?—A. Yes, sir; I will.

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