Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs - 1885

Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs
1885


EDWARD FENLON.

Washington, D. C., January 6, 1885
EDWARD FENLON sworn and examined.
By the Chairman :
Question. What is your full name?—Answer. Edward Fenton.
Q. Where do you reside?—A. I reside at Leavenworth, Kans.
Q. What is your business?—A. I am engaged in the cattle business.
Q. How long have you been in that business?—A. About 15 years
Q. Have you had much to do with the Indians?—A. I have been a good deal in the Indian country.
Q. Have you had much to do with the Indians in the Indian Terri­tory?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. In what capacity?—A. As a Government contractor. In this capacity I furnished flour and other articles. I was also a quartermaster in the Indian Department, and I freighted goods from the end of the railroad to the Cheyenne and Arapaho and Kiowa, and the Wichita Agency; and I freighted from the military post down.
Q. Where is the end of the railroad?—A. The railroad stops at Caldwell, Kans.
Q. Have you any interest in any of these leases?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. In what lease?—A. I have a lease of the Cheyenne and Arapaho.
Q. Was it made at the same time the others were?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. How much land does it embrace?—A. Five hundred and sixty-four thousand acres.
Q. Where does it lie?—A. It is just north of Mr. Malaley's lease.
Q. Were. you down there when the lease was obtained?—A. I was there, but not present at the council at the time the lease was made. Mr. Malaley was there, and Mr. Evans came there after we got through. But there were other leases made to people who were not there.
Q. Who represented them?—A. I do not know; I represented one myself beside my own.
Q. Whose was that?—A. That was the lease given to Mr. Denman.
Q. How much land did it contain?—A. Somewhere between four and five hundred thousand acres.
Q. Where is Mr. Denman?—A. He is here in the city.
Q. For how long a term was your lease made?—A. Ten years.
Q. For what price?—A. Two cents an acre.
Q. Is it fenced in?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is it stocked?—A. It is not fully stocked. I put my lease into the company Mr. Malaley was talking about. We put both of ours in.
Q. Were any other leases put in?—A. Only these two leases.
Q. Yours and Mr. Malaley's?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. What company is it?—A. It is a corporation, with the office in New York, and incorporated under the laws of the State of New York.
Q. Who are the officers?—A. Dr. R. W. Raymond, president; A. F. Childs, secretary and treasurer; and I am manager of the company.
Q. What is the name of the company?—A. Cheyenne and Arapaho Cattle Company.
Q. Where do the officers reside?—A. The president and secretary are in New York.

By Mr. . Ingalls :


Q. Is R. W. Raymond the Raymond who was employed by the Gov­ernment?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is his name Rossiter?—A. Yes, sir.

By Mr. Bowen :

Q. Is he the mining expert?—A. I do not know, sir.

By the Chairman :

Q. R. W. Raymond is the president of the company, you say?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know the stockholders?—A. I know some of them; but a good deal of stock has been sold.
Q. What is the nominal capital of the company?—A. One million dollars.

By Mr. Cameron :

Q. Who were the original stockholders?—A. They were H. B. Den­man, Calvin Hood, William E. Malaley, and the estate, I think, of Peter Cooper; but I do not know that positively—I understand they sub­scribed originally for stock—and then the other stockholder is myself. I have mentioned Malaley, have I not?
The Chairman . Yes, sir.
The Witness And Denman, Calvin Hood, estate of Peter Cooper, and myself.
Q. Then, under the original stockholders, how much did the estate of Peter Cooper have?—A. The original stock was $250,000 subscribed by the estate of Peter Cooper.
Q. Does that represent so much cash money?—A. Yes, sir. We all put in our proportion of cash money out of the bonds sold. We organized with $1,000,000 of bonds. Five hundred thousand dollars of bonds were cashed and $500,000 not disposed of, but still in the hands of the treasurer.

By Mr. Harrison:

Q. A half a million was sold at par?—A. Yes, sir; a half' a million was sold at par, and the stock was given as a bonus to the first purchasers at 60 cents on the dollar.
Q. Sixty per cent. of $500,000 went proportionally to those who subscribed half a million?—A. Yes, sir; that is, they got 60 per cent. bonus.
Q. You sold $500,000 worth of bonds and issued 60 per cent. of stock; that is, 60 per cent. of $500,000?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then you took to yourself and Mr. Malaley 40 per cent.?—A. We are using only one-half of the funds. A half of the 40 per cent. has only been given to us. I do not mean 40 per cent of the whole, but 40 per cent of the $500,000. Two hundred thousand dollars' worth of stock has been balanced up.
Q. Then 40 per cent. of bonds are what what you and Mr. Malaley have for your lease in the stock of the company?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you paid any dividends?—A. No. sir.
Q. Did you and Mr. Malaley take any bonds?—A. I subscribed $75,000. I do not know what Mr. Malaley put in.
Q. Did he put in cash?—A. Yes, sir. The whole $500,000 has been expended in cattle and horses, and other expenses.

By the Chairman :

Q. How many times did you go down there in connection with getting the lease?—A. I only went that time.
Q. How long were you there?—A. About ten days or two weeks.
Q. You went there to make the lease?—A. Yes, sir. I first reported to Agent Miles and told him my business, what I came down there for, and he said he was glad to see me and that he was in favor of leasing the lands, and he hoped good men would get the land. He said he would call a council if I wanted to talk to the Indians and make an offer. He did call a council. I proposed to the Indians to lease some of their lands, and all the leases made were based upon what I did at that time. Now, gentlemen, I would like to give a full account of the transaction.
The Chairman . Very well; go on.
The Witness. Well, a council was called, and nearly all the chiefs and headmen of both tribes were present; 97 per cent. were present.

By Mr. Ingalls:

Q. How many were there in all?—A. Two or three hundred. I told them I understood they wanted to lease a portion of their land.

By Mr. Harrison:

Q. How did you become aware that they desired to lease their land?—A. I had been trying for several years to make a lease, and we had word through Mr. Hunter or some one else that these parties desired to lease their land, and I went down there with the idea to make a lease. I made a proposition to these Indians to pay 2 cents an acre.
Q. Was it in open council?—A. Yes, sir; it was in open council. Everybody was invited to be present. We sent to Fort Reno and requested the commanding officer to be present.
Q. Did he come?—A. Yes, sir. The council was called, as I have said, these chief parties being present, and after a session of two or three hours they said they wanted to council among themselves. So the council was adjourned. Two or three days after this, they said to Mr. Miles that they wanted to talk further about the matter, so a second council was called. They had an idea that we wanted to buy their land; they did not understand how they could lease the grass without selling the land. I explained through an interpreter that all I wanted was to lease the grass, and I proposed to pay them 2 cents an acre. Some of them asked more. One, I think, who was either a Cheyenne or a Arap­aho, asked me $1 an acre for a piece of land in the northwest cor­ner of the reservation. I replied that the land was not worth that price, grass and all, and I had nothing further to say. And I said if they could not do any better I could not make the lease, and I took my hat and left them there, and started for the Kiowa and Comanche Agency, thinking I could make a lease with these Indians. Two or three hours after I arrived there, a messenger came, and said the Indians at the Cheyenne and Arapaho Agency wanted me to lease the land. I went back the next day, and we consummated the lease.
Q. Was this the first lease made?—A. Yes, sir; mine was the first lease signed, and the other leases were based upon it. In the selection of the land I tried to lease a good piece of land, and told Mr. Miles I would pay a little more if he would allow me to pick out a more desirable locality. He said he was going to make the lines so that all the lessees would have good grass and good water.
Q. He made these leases out himself!—A. Yes, sir; he made them himself.

By Mr. Ingalls :

Q. The original idea was to lease the whole thing, was it not?—A. Yes, sir. After the agreement had been made, and the agent having blocked it out, l made my selection and Mr. Malaley made his. And I do not know but what I made a selection for Mr. Denman. I know he requested me to get a lease for him.
Q. Have you paid your rental?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many payments have you made?—A. Four.
Q. Did you make these payments personally?—A. Yes, sir; all but one.
Q. Describe the manner in which the payments were made.—A. Well, sir, the Indians are paid on ration tickets, which are issued by the agent to every family. These tickets give the number of persons in the family and the amount of money due to such family, and the money is divided per capita. So that if $60,000 was divided up among 6,000 persons, each person would receive, at a semiannual payment, about $5; or if a family consists of six persons, the person who presented the ticket, usually the squaw, would receive $30; and where there were ten persons in a family $60 would be paid.
Q. How often are these tickets issued?—A. I do not know how often they are issued, but I think once in ninety days, or six months.
Q. Has the agent always been present at these payments?
A. Yes, sir; he has always been present and witnessed the payments, but he has never taken any official action in the matter.
Q. Has the money never been paid over to him, to be paid to the Indians.
A. No, sir; he has declined to have the money turned over to him.
Q. So this action of his is a voluntary action, is it not?
A. Yes, sir; it is a voluntary action on his part.
Q. Who pays this money?
A. The various lessees in the Cheyenne and Arapaho Company have formed an association, and they all send their money to some committee appointed to receive it, which committee attends to the payment of the money. I have been Chairman of the executive committee, and the money has always been sent to me.
Q. So the association pays through you?—A. Yes, sir; but there was one payment I did not witness.
Q. Have you any knowledge of the use they make of the money?—A. Yes, sir; the first payment they squandered in drinking, but the last two they appeared to use the money very judiciously. The last payment I noticed especially; they bought blankets, shoes, clothing, and other necessary articles, and they appeared to understand better than before how to use the money.
Q. Have they had any cash annuities from the Government?—A. No, sir; they have never had any cash annuities from the Government from the beginning.
Q. Do they spend any of this money for arms and ammunition?—A. I could not tell; I know that the parties are forbid from selling arms and ammunition to the Indians, but the Indians go. to Arkansas and Kansas and they can find on the border men who can get these things for them.
Q. Would it be advisable to take their arms away from them?—A. Yes, sir; but it cannot be done without force.
Q. Could they be induced to sell their arms?—A. No, sir; the dearest things they have are their arms and ponies.
Q. Do you know of any money being paid, or of any promise to pay money, in connection with obtaining these leases?—A. Well, sir, I made no promise. I did not use a dollar, and have not paid a dollar.
Q. Do you know whether it was done or not?—A. No, sir; of course there were rumors, but I have no reason to think that it was done.

By Mr. Cameron :

Q. Did Agent Miles receive anything for the part he took in obtaining the leases?—A. Well, sir, it was stated in the newspapers and otherwise that Mr. Miles received money, but I was present at the time the leases were talked about and negotiated, and I know all about it. And I will say that, as far as I know, he did not receive a dollar from anybody.
Q. Did the Indians pay him anything?—A. They would not be likely to do so, sir.
Q. Do you know of any Indian's receiving more than any other Indian?—A. The only payment I know over and above the amount due to each individual was $500 apiece, paid to two of the chiefs by the rest of the tribe in order that they might build a couple of houses.
Q. Now, sir; you have had a good deal of knowledge of Indians?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you think there is any better way to dispose of this money than to distribute it per capita? Would it not be better to give it to somebody to build houses and to use any other necessary ways for the Indians?—A. Not now, sir.
Q. Well, then, in the outset could a better plan have been devised?—A. I did think that if it had been invested in cattle it would have been better, but I do not know but what it is better now.

By Mr. Harrison:

Q. Have you encouraged them to take it in cattle?—A. Yes, sir; and I believe that if the Indians had more cattle our cattle would be safer.
Q. I see that the cattle are to be branded, but the branding-iron is to be kept by the lessees; why is this?—A. Well, sir, we do not want these men to take our irons to brand cattle with.
Q. Do not you think that if this thing were to be regulated by law, it would be better to make them take cattle in payment?—A. Yes, sir; and I believe that these Indians want the next payment in cattle. The agent has fenced up the unleased lands, and if this is so, at the end of ten years these Indians could have a fine herd of cattle; in fact they would not have enough land to hold their cattle if they would, instead of eating them, take care of them, and for this purpose having prudent herders to look after them, the cattle would increase enormously, after a few years. I have some interest myself in trying to keep these Indians in good shape.
Q. Instead of paying in money you would invest it in cattle, would you not.?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have the Indians said what kind of cattle they want?—A. Well, sir, I do not know that they have.
Q. When you made this lease, you thought it would be beneficial to the Indians?—A. No, sir; I went down there to make money.
Q. You do not understand me. I mean the payment in cattle.—A. Oh! yes, sir. I thought you meant making the lease. [Laughter.]
Q. Is there a fair prospect that the Indian might be turned into a successful herder?—A. Yes, sir; I think so. But in the first instance they must be compelled to do it.
Q. Now, if these Indians were in your hands, as a private individual, and you had the power to do with them as you liked, what would you do?—A. To answer that question, I would have to consider it. [Laugh­ter.]
Mr. Harrison. Well, sir; I do not think you look like a man who delights in dead Indians.
The Witness. Well, sir; one thing would be for the Government to have a showing of sufficient force to make them do what the rules of the Department require. As it is now, the Government is raising up thieves and bandits.
Q. To what Indians does this apply?—A. It applies to the Cheyenne, Arapaho, and the Kiowas and Comanches.
Q. Are the Indians under Mr. Scott different from these?—A. Yes, sir.

By Mr.. Harrison:

Q. Are these Indians increasing in number?—A. No, sir; I think not. I do not think they have increased in the last three or four years.

By Mr.. Bowen:

Q. In case you should pay the entire rental in cattle, about how many would they have per year in payment?—A. Well, sir; I think they would get about 2,000 head of cattle a year; at any rate it is enough to say that they won't have land enough to hold them at the end of a few years. That is, if they would sell only four-year-old cattle and invest in yearling cattle.

By Mr. Harrison:


Q. If they sell off the four-year-old they would still have a large income?—A. Yes, sir.

By the Chairman :

Q. Would this 2,000 head of cattle be enough to support them?—A. No, sir; it would not be enough.
Q. How many does it take to support them now?—A. It takes about 6,500 head, I think, to support them now.
Q. This is for the Cheyenne and Arapahoes?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. If they knew how to take care of their cattle, would they, at the end of ten years, be in a position to sustain themselves entirely?—A. I think so; that is, with proper management.

By Mr.. Bowen :

Q. Do they attend to their business?—A. No, sir; they have no disposition to do anything that I ever found out.

By the Chairman :

Q. How do they differ from the other Indians in respect to their condition and habits of life? I mean between the Cheyennes, Arapahoes, and the Kiowas, Comanches on the one side, and the Poncas, Pawnees, and Nez Perces and other Indians on the other side.—A. Well, sir, I understand that the whole of those Indians are getting along towards civilization very rapidly.
Q. What has wrought the change?—A. Well, sir, I do not know exactly, but I have heard that the Quapaws and the Nez Perces have been making leases for several years.
Q. You do not understand what I am inquiring about. What has made these Indians so much better off than the Cheyennes, Arapahoes, and the Kiowas and Comanches?—A. Well sir, I am not exactly prepared to state.

By Mr.. Ingalls :

Q. Will you look at page 99 of the document that lies before you on the table? Is that letter of April 25, 1883, the one referred to in the previous testimony
(Witness examines letter.)
A. Yes, sir; that is the letter.
Q. Have you ever received from the Secretary of the Interior, or from any officer in the Department of the Interior, any assurances or guarantees other than anti beyond those contained in that letter?—A. No, sir.
Q. You have not?—A. No, sir.
Mr. Ingalls. That is all.

By Mr.. Harrison:

Q. You do not know of any Government officer's being concerned in any of these leases?—A. No, sir.
Q. Indirectly or directly?—A. No, sir.
Q. Have you any knowledge of anything of the kind?—A. No, sir.

By Mr. Gorman:

Q. Who is your counsel and attorney?—A. Mr. Peck is attorney for the association.
Q. Now, sir, have you not claimed, through attorney, that the Department had recognized these leases, and that they were valid, and that the Indians had a right to make them?—A. No, sir; I have not.
Q. You have never taken that ground yourself?—A. No, sir; but, of course, I have always taken this ground: I understood the Secretary was favorable to the leases, and if the Executive order were not rescinded that the leases would be approved officially.
Q. You understood that you were subject to any change of the Executive order?—A. Yes, sir. Of course our leases are subject to what the Executive might do in reference to changing the order.
Q. What assurances have you received from the Department?—A. That we should be given reasonable time if the lands were to be used for any other purpose.
Q. Do you think it is advisable to attempt to regulate by law this whole system of leasing Indian lands?—A. Yes, sir; I do.
Q. Have you any plans you could suggest?—A. No, sir; I do not know that I have any matured plans, but I think it would be better to have the whole matter regulated by law, and put in the charge of some official here who would see it properly done.
Q. Do you think the Indians understood the leases when they were made?—A. Yes, sir; I believe they all understood it, and not only signed it but insisted upon me smoking with them.
Q. Did you think you were paying enough rental at the time the leases were made?—A. Yes, sir; at the time of the lease I thought I was giving all the land was worth. At the same time cattle were being herded on the Cherokee land at 35 and?0 cents per head, and I thought that my offer of 2 cents per acre was sufficient at the time.

By Mr. Harrison:

Q. As to the number of acres in these leases, could they not be taken in smaller tracts?—A. Well, sir, I think it is more desirable to have them in reasonably large tracts, because those holding these leases would be more careful, having more at stake, to get along with the Indians, and the Department would have less trouble than if there were four hundred or more lessees to look after. The tact that we have $500,000 invested is an incentive for us to keep the Indians in good condition in reference to our leases.
Q. Is the land generally good?—A. Well, sir, out of the two leases I think two hundred and fifty or three hundred thousand acres are valueless, for the reason that at certain times of the year there is no water, and the cattle must have ground where there is water.



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