Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs - 1885
Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs
1885

E. B. TOWNSEND.

Washington, D. C., January 22, 1885.
E. B. TOWNSEND sworn and examined.
By the Chairman:

Question. What is your full name?—Answer. E. B. Townsend.
Q. What does E stand for?—A. Eddie.
Q. Where do you reside?—A. I reside in Washington.
Q. How long have you resided in Washington?—A. Since 1865, most of the time.
Q. What has been your business here?—A. I was in the public service until about a year ago last March, I think.
Q. In what department?—A. With the District government.
Q. After that?—A. I was in the Indian service.
Q. When did you go in the Indian service?—A. In March, 1880.
Q. What did you do up to that time?—A. I was with the District government.
Q. What is the day of your entry in the Indian service?—A. March 21, I think; that is the day of my commission.
Q. What part of the country did you visit?—A. I went all over the country.
Q. What was your position?—A. Special agent.
Q. What is the duty by law of a special agent?—A. He is subject to the order of the Indian Commissioner, to go wherever he directs.
Q. What is the pay?—A. Two thousand a year.
Q. And expenses? —A. Yes, sir; two thousand a year and expenses.
Q. In March, 1880, you went into that business?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. When did you cease to receive pay as a special agent?—A. In March, 1884.
Q. Did you ever go down into the Indian Territory?—A. Yes, sir; very frequently.
Q. When did you first go there?—A. I think it was in November, 1881, as near as my memory serves me.
Q. What particular part of the Territory did you go to?—A. I went to the Sac and Fox Agency.
Q. What did you go there for?—A. To relieve an agent who had been removed.
Q. What was his name?—A. John F. Short.
Q. How long did you stay there?—A. I think I staid there until the following May.
Q. Then was somebody appointed regular agent?—A. Yes, sir; somebody was then appointed regular agent.
Q. Who?—A. Jacob V. Carter.
Q. What time of the year?—A. In the latter part of November, 1881. I think I reached the agency about Thanksgiving day, 1881.
Q. What did you do there?—A. I assumed charge of the agency by direction of the Commissioner.
Q. Did you do anything else?—A. No, sir.
Q. You did not enter into any private business?—A. No, sir.
Q. When did you visit the Territory again?—A. The next time, I think, was the spring of 1883.
Q. What part of the Territory did you go to at that time?—A. I went to Muskogee, Tulsa, Sac and Fox Agency, and Shawneetown.
Q. Where is Muskogee?—A. It is on the Missouri. Kansas and Texas Railroad.
Q. Well, that is a pretty long line. Where abouts on the road is it?—A. A hundred miles from the Sac and Fox Agency, near Fort Gibson.
Q. That is on the reservation?—A. No, sir.
Q. What did you do there?—A. I took my departure from that point to the Sac and Fox Agency.
Q. How long did you stay there?—A. I think I stopped there over night.
Q. You went to the Sac and Fox Agency?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was the first place you visited after leaving Muskegee?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then you went to the Sac and Fox Agency through Muskogee, where you staid all night?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. What time did you get to the Sac and Fox Agency?—A. I cannot now say. I presume about night. That is the usual time of arrival.
Q. Have you any knowledge of what day of the year it was?—A. I cannot state from memory.
Q. Well, state it as near as you. can. What season of the year was it?—A. It was in March. I had come over from Oregon.
Q. This was in 1883?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. In the month of March, 1883?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you go there for?—A. I went there to investigate and report upon the trouble between the Shawnees and Pottawatomies.
Q. How long were you there?—A. I think I was there about one month.
Q. Where did you go from there?—A. To the Cheyenne and Arapahoe’s Agency, Fort Reno.
Q. What did you go there for?—A. I went there to investigate the troubles between the Cheyennes and Wichitas.
Q. How long did you stay?—A. I staid there three weeks or a month.
Q. And from there where did you go?—A. I returned to Washington.
Q. What time did you come to Washington?—A. I can’t give the exact date.
The Chairman . Well, we want it approximately.
The Witness. I should say about the 1st of June. I left the Cheyenne Agency on the 21st of May, and probably the last day of May or the 1st day of June I reached Washington.
Q. Well, where did you go next?—A. I went to Osage Agency.
Q. What time did you go there?—A. Well, sir, it must have been about the 10th of June, 1883. I was only in Washington twenty-four or thirty-six hours.
Q. What did you go to the Osage Agency for?—A. I went there to witness the annuity payment.
Q. How long did you stay there?—A. About ten days or two weeks.
Q. Then where did you go?—A. I went to Muskogee and Ocmulgee.
Q What did you go there for?—A. I went there for the purpose of investigating the Creek troubles.
Q. What are those troubles?—A. Troubles between the chiefs Ispahechee and Checote there, which have been going on for the last four or five years.
Q. How long did you remain there?—A. Three or four days.
Q. And then where did you go?—A. I went back to the Osage Agency.
Q. What for?—A. To finish the annuity payment.
Q. How long did you remain there?—A. Two or three days.
Q. Where did you go from there?—A. To Coffeyville,Kans.
Q. What did you go there ;for?—A. On my route to Washington.
Q. Where did you go from Coffeyville?—A. I went from there to Cherryvale.
Q. Where is that?—A. It is about 10 miles north of Coffeyville, in Kansas.
Q. Did you go there on Government business?—A. I went there on my way to Washington.
Q. What was going on at this Cherryvale?—A. There is where we change cars, sir.
Q. Where did you go from Cherryvale?—A. To Wellington, Kans.
Q. From there where did you go?—A. To Sac and Fox Agency.
Q. What did you go back for?—A. To answer a call from Mr. Pickett.
Q. What did you do when you got there?—A. Well, sir, I staid over night and left the next day.
Q. For where?—A. For Washington.
Q. How long did you stay in Washington this time?—A. I think I was here two or three weeks on that occasion.
Q. Where did you go next?—A. To Wabash, Ind.
Q. On Government business?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you go next?—A. To Yankton, Dak.
Q. How long did you stay there?—A. I staid there about a month.
Q. Where did you go next?—A. To the Crow Creek Agency.
Q. How long did you stay there?—A. I think about ten days or two weeks.
Q. What did you go there for?—A. To investigate the troubles there.
Q. What troubles?—A. Charges had been made in regard to the conduct of the school.
Q. When did you reach there?—A. About the middle of October, I think.
Q. Was it the middle of October, 1883?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. You found the school burnt down, did you not?—A. No, sir. There was one burnt up some time before, but they were at this time in the new building.
Q. How long did you stay there?—A. Ten days or two weeks.
Q. Where did you go from there?—A. I went to the Lower Brulé Agency.
Q. What did you do there?—A. There were complaints also against the school, and complaints as to the general management of the agency affairs. I cannot now recollect the exact spirit of my letter of instructions.
Q. From there where did you go?—A. I think my next destination was Fort Berthold.
Q. How long did you stay there?—A. I staid there three weeks or a month.
Q. That brought you up to what time of the year?—A. To about the first of November.
Q. First of November, 1883?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you go next?—A. I went to the White Earth Agency, Minnesota.
Q. How long did you stay there?—A. About three weeks.
The Chairman . I want to follow you around, if you have no objection.
The Witness. None whatever, sir.
The Chairman . Go on as rapidly as you can.
The Witness. From White Earth I went to Thames City, Iowa.
Q. How long were you there?—A. I think about a week or ten days.
Q. What did you go there for?—A. To make an annuity payment there.
Q. Well, where did you go from there?—A. Then I was ordered to Muskogee, Indian Territory, in connection with Inspector Benedict, to investigate the Creek troubles; also to investigate the agent at the Sac and Fox Agency.
Q. When did you reach the Sac and Fox Agency?—A. I reached the Sac and Fox Agency some time in December; I should think about the 6th, 7th, or 8th of December.
Q. How long did you stay there?—A. I think I was there about a week or ten days.
Q. Where did you go from there?—A. I went back from there to Ponca Agency.
Q. How long did you stay at Muskogee?—A. Ten days or two weeks.
Q. What did you say you were there for?—A. Investigating Creek troubles in connection with Inspector Benedict.
Q. You were at the Ponca Agency?—A. Yes, sir. I was requested by the Commissioner by telegraph to go there.
Q. How long were you there?—A. I was there two or three days.
Q. What did you do there?—A. I went there to investigate the trouble in regard to schools.
The Chairman . The schools all around got into difficulty. Wherever you went there was a trouble. How long were you investigating the trouble there/
The Witness. About two days.
Q. Where did you go from there?—A. I came from there to Washington, reaching Washington about the 1st of February.
Q. How long did you stay in Washington?—A. I staid in Washington until the 19th of March.
Q. Where did you go to then?—A. I went back to Kansas.
Q. What part of Kansas?—A. Arkansas City.
Q. What did you go there for?—A. I went there on private business.
Q. How long did you stay there?—A. About a week or ten days.
Q. Where did you go from there?—A. To Lawrence, Kans.
Q. What did you go there for—on what business?—A. On private business.
Q. How long did you stay there?—A. A day or two—perhaps three days.
Q. Where did you go from there?—A. To the Sac and Fox Agency.
Q. What time did you arrive at the Sac and Fox Agency?—A. I should think the first week of April.
Q. What was the trouble there? What did you go there for?—A. I went there to make a payment to the Iowa Indians, on account of a lease.
Q. What lease?—A. The lease I had executed with them.
Q. The lease you had executed?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long did you stay there?—A. I think I was there 4 or 5 days, or possibly a week.
Q. What did you do next?—A. I went to Fort Worth, Texas.
Q. What for?—A. On private business.
Q. How long did you stay there?—A. Perhaps two weeks.
Q. When was that?—A. About the first week in May, 1884.
Q. What time did you cease to be inspector?—A. My resignation took effect the 10th of March, 1884.
Q. Then you were not a Government officer when you went to Fort Worth?—A. No, sir; I was a private citizen in Texas.
Q. Then you went to the Sac and Fox Agency?—A. Yes, sir; I went to the Sac and Fox Agency in response to Mr. Pickett’s letter.
Q. Where did you receive this letter?—A. I met the messenger at the Osage Agency. From there I went to Wichita, and from Wichita I went to Coffeeville, and from there to the Sac and Fox Agency.
Q. How long did you stay there at the agency?—A. I remained there a day.
Q. Will you fix the time when you made that sudden retreat?—A. It was the 27th of June, 1884-1883, I should say.
Q. Under whose order did you do that?—A. I did it on my own responsibility, at the call of Mr. Pickett.
Q. Who is he?—A. He is the trader at the Sac and Fox Agency.
Q. Is he trader under the license of the Government?—A. Yes. sir.
Q. He called you back?—A. He sent me a letter asking me to return.
Q. You were in the employ of the Government?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you subject to his orders?—A. No, sir; I was not.i
Q. Then you deviated from the orders of the Government to go back to the Sac and Fox Agency at the request of the trader?—A. No, sir; I did not deviate from my orders. I had started from Osage for Washington.
Q. It was your business to report at Washington?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. On your way you received a letter from the trader at the Sac and Fox Agency, and at the request contained in that letter you wheeled about and went back?—A. Yes, sir; I went to the agency in response to this letter.
Q. You did not go over on Government business?—A. No, sir; I went on private business.
Q. What was that business?—A. I went to sign a lease with the Sac and Fox Indians.
Q. When did you begin to hear about the lease?—A. I think it was the 23d day of May, 1883.
Q. What was the first you heard about it?—A. I heard that the Sac and Fox Indians were talking about leasing their lands.
Q. You were then an inspector under the Government?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Sent to report what was going on?—A. Yes; sir.
Q. Did you report that fact to the Department?—A. No, sir; I did not.
Q. Did you report that these Indians were ready to lease their land?—A. That was well known to the Department, sir.
Q. Did you report to the Department what was known to the inspector—that the Indians, generally, were in the frame of mind for leasing?—A. No, sir.
Q. Did you report to the Department that its own inspector was executing a lease with the Indians?—A. I cannot say, sir.
Q. Did its own inspector communicate what he was doing ,—A. No, sir.
Q. Tell us how this matter began.—A. Mr. Pickett suggested it and asked me if I was willing to join in the lease.
Q. He was an official of the Government, was he not?—A. No, sir.
Q. He was a licensed trader?—A. Yes, sir.
The Chairman . These two officials began that arrangement with the Indians, and the inspector who was sent there did not communicate that fact.
The Witness. What facts
The Chairman . The fact that he was engaged in the business of getting a lease from the Indians.
The Witness. I am not aware that he was in that business, sir.
Q. The inquiry was whether he communicated what he was doing to the Department?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he tell the Government?—A. He communicated to the Department before he went there that he was going there to get a lease.
Q. Did you communicate this to the Department?—A. I communicated with the Department through my partner in this city.
Q. You call that the Government, do you?—A. I said I communi cated this fact to the Department through my partner by telegram.
Q. You telegraphed to your partner here?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was your partner here?—A. Mr. M. M. Parker.
Q. Where does he live f—A. He lives in Washington.
Q. What did you communicate to him?—A. I can give you a copy of the original telegram; if you desire it, I would like to read it.
The Chairman . Well, read it.
The Witness (reading):

June 27, 1883.
To M. M. Parker, 1418 F street northwest, Washington, D. C. :
Telegraph me Commissioner’s consent that I should sign lease in view of resignation upon completion of my present orders. Have good reasons to fear I might compromise my standing with Department without this. Hurry up.
TOWNSEND.

Q. What did he answer to that telegram?—A. I have it here.
The Witness (reading):

Washington, D. C., June 27, 1883.
To T. B. Townsend,
Cherryvale, Kans.:
Commissioner says no objection
M. M. PARKER.

Q. After this you continued Indian inspector?—A. Until the following March 1 was under the orders of the Department constantly.
Q. And this with the full knowledge of the Department that its inspector was getting a lease on his private account. What is the date of your telegram?—A. June the 27th.
Q. That is the date of your telegram to your partner?—A. Yes, sir. Q. And from what place?—A. From Cherryvale, Kansas.
Q. You were there at Cherryvale?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was the time you turned around and went back at the re­quest of Mr. Pickett?—A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Harrison. Mr. Chairman , I think the letter of Mr. Pickett should be produced.
The Chairman . Mr. Townsend, have you the letter with you /
The Witness. Yes, sir. It is a private letter. I will read the portion that refers to this matter. The other portions are of a private nature, and I presume the committee would not want to know my private busi­ness.
The Chairman . We do not want anything except what relates to this business.
The Witness. It is a private letter.

By the Chairman :

Q. Is there anything in it that you object to our looking at privately?—A. Not at all, sir.
Q. What is the name of the place in Kansas?—A. Cherryvale.
Q. When was that?—A. That was in June; somewhere about the 19th, I think.
Q. How many times previous to this 19th of June had you been to the agency in the capacity of Indian inspector?—A. Once or twice.
Q. Describe what you did there.—A. In the first instance, I relieved an agent who was removed.
Q. You removed this agent and you acted as agent?—A. Tempora­rily.
Q. And the Indians knew you as substantially the agent during that time?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many months did you remain there in this capacity?—A. About six months.
Q. That was in March, was it?—A. Yes, sir; but my term there ended in May, 1883, or maybe in May, 1882.
Q. Then you went back there again, when?—A. I was there on duty in December, 1883.
Q. How long were you there then? That was after you had ceased to be acting agent?—A. Yes, sir. I was there first in 1882, and in 1883 I was there again—in April, 1883.
Q. For how long a time?—A. I think it took me three weeks or a month there and at Shawneetown together.
Q. What were you doing at Shawneetown?—A. Investigating the trouble between the Pottawatomie Indians and the Shawnee Indians.
Q. Who helped you—anybody?—A. Yes, sir. I recollect I used the employés at the Shawnee school. There is one gentleman, whose name I cannot call, but I can call the physician’s name, Dr. Crane, and the other employés at Shawneetown. Mr. Cox was the gentleman I was thinking of. He assisted me some.
Q. When did you go back?—A. In December, 1883.
Q. For what purpose?—A. To investigate the agent at that agency.
Q. What was his name?—A. Jacob V. Carter.
Q. That is the same Mr. Carter you spoke of before.—A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long were you there?—A. I think I was there about ten days.
Q. You overhauled things generally?—A. I overhauled Mr. Carter pretty generally.
Q. He was under your orders?—A. Not at all.
Q. Did you investigate under him?—A. No, sir.
Q. You investigated over him?—A. Well, sir, I investigated him.
Q. Who had the power to say who was to be investigated? You had the control and the general conduct of affairs?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, for the time being, he was rather subordinate to you, was he not?—A. Well, sir, it was so regarded.
Q. How long were you there?—A. I should think about ten or twelve days.
Q. Then you came back there again, did you not, after that?—A. No, sir; I passed through Shawneetown en route to the Ponca Agency.
Q. How long did you stay there then?—A. Three or four days.
Q. What did you do?—A. I communicated with the Iowa Indians on the subject of the lease.
Q. What lease?—A. The lease in which I am now interested.
Q. That was in December?—A. No, sir; in January of 1884.
Q. You communicated with them on their reservation which is under the Sac and Fox Agency?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. How far is it from the Sac and Fox Agency?—A. Thirty-five miles.

By Mr. Harrison:

Q. Who went there with you?—A. Mr. Pickett went with me.

By the Chairman :

Q. You went there in January?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long did you stay?—A. About two days.
Q. Was it the early part of January?—A. No, sir. I think it was about the 18th or 20th of January.
Q. What did you do there?—A. I talked with the Indians in regard to the lease.
Q. You held a council?—A. Yes, sir; but not a formal council. Their headmen and chiefs had gathered.
Q. What did you say to them?—A. I told them if they wanted to lease their land I was prepared to execute a lease as soon as I left the service of the Government.
Q. What did they say?—A. They were not prepared to lease their land.
Q. How many days did you take to get that much?—A. Two days.
Q. Did you give them any opinion or information ? Did you express any opinion as to whether it would be good for them or not?—A. No, sir; we left that for them to decide among themselves.
Q. When did you see them again?—A. I was there on the 28th, 29th, or 30th of March following.

By Mr. Harrison:

Q. Was anything said about fencing this land?—A. Yes, sir; they said they did not want to fence it.
Q. They did not care for it?—A. Well, they were opposed to it.
Q. Was anything said as to the character of the title to that reservation?—A. They understood it to be an Executive order.
Q. Was anything said about it? I am not asking what they understood. Was anything said definitely or indefinitely about it?—A. I should presume not.
Q. Well, sir, I do not want to go into presumptions at all. I want to get at recollections.—A. I should say, then, the matter was discussed or referred to.
Q. Was anything said about getting their reservation made permanent?—A. I told them I would do all in my power to secure them a permanent reservation.
Q. Did you tell them this as a Government officer?—A. No, sir; I did not tell them that as a Government officer.
Q. Well, you were a Government officer, and you promised them to do all you could ?—A. Yes; I made that promise.
Q. Your resignation had not yet taken effect?—A. No, sir; I regarded it as having been tendered.
Mr. Harrison. Well, sir, if it had not taken effect you were as much an officer of the Government as if it had not been tendered, but we won’t discuss that.
Q. What did you tell them?—A. I told them I would assist them.
Q. Did you tell them anything about the price that was paid by other parties?—A. I told them that other Indians were leasing their land at 2 cents an acre, and that, as far as I knew, that was the price that was being paid, and that cattle were being grazed by the head at 25 and 30 cents, as they knew, within a short distance of their reservation.
Q. Did you tell them what the policy of the Department was in re­gard to leases?—A. I did not know it, sir.
Q. Did you tell them whether you thought the Department would recognize the lease or not?—A. No, sir.
Q. You did not tell them whether they would please or offend the Department by leasing their land?—A. No, sir.
Q. How much of their land did you ask for?—A. I asked for the entire reservation.
Q. All of their land?—A. Yes, sir; that is, leaving what they needed collectively or individually for the purpose of cultivation. That they should reserve all they needed for their private, individual, or collective use for grazing and all other purposes.

By the Chairman :

Q. Who was to be the judge of how much they needed?—A. They were to be.
Q. They were to have all they wanted?—A. Yes, sir; and we were not to encroach on any reservation or field they cultivated.

By Mr. Harrison:

Q. In other words, what they had actually unclosed was to be left?—A. Yes, sir; and we were to use the unoccupied portion of the reservation.
Q. Do you mean that, after you had taken the lease, they might at any time take any portion of it?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you propose that the lease should embrace every acre?—A.. Yes, sir; but they declined to accept those terms.
Q. You were a Government officer, and you proposed to lease every acre which the Government had set apart for them?—A. Yes, sir; except what the Indians should need for themselves.
Q. You were a Government officer?—A. Yes, sir; I was a Government officer in this sense, but I supposed my resignation having been tendered I was relieved from this responsibility.
Q. Do you mean to say that the offer of your resignation discharged you from your obligation as an officer?—A. Yes, sir ; so far as anything of that kind went.
Q. You were bound by your oath and official responsibility at that time, or else you were fully discharged; which do you understand it to be? You were an officer of the Government clothed with all the authority of the Government, and a special agent at the time?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you knew it when you made the lease?—A. Yes, sir.

By the Chairman :

Q. When did you first tender your resignation?—A. I wrote to the Commissioner about the middle of December, to the effect that I had been continued in the service much longer than I desired. and to the prejudice of my private interests, and I requested to be relieved at the earliest possible opportunity.
Q. What communication did you get from the Department in answer to this
—A. The first communication was a telegram asking me to remain and serve with Mr. Benedict in investigating the Creek troubles, and upon the 24th of June following, I asked the consent of the Commissioner to do this thing upon my resignation. This was the June of 1883.
Q. I understand you to say this was a communication which you received from Kansas when you were requested by Mr. Pickett to sign the lease?—A. You are entirely correct.
Q. Then the December previous to your asking the consent of the Department, or the January previous, you had gone over there and obtained a lease
The Witness. I think you are a little confused, Mr. Chairman, as to dates.
The Chairman . Well, either you or I are confused. I understood you to say the January preceding June, 1883. I called it December and you said it was January. You then went to have this interview which Mr. Harrison has asked about?—A. No, sir; it was the January following.
Q. Well, now, this letter is dated June 19, 1883, and the first communication you had with the Indians was the January previous to this?—A. No, sir; I had never talked with them then.
The Chairman . The letter says :

Come to the agency as soon as you can get here, and we will sign up our lease with the Sac and Fox Indians. If you were here now we could get it, and unless some unforeseen or unexpected influence comes in it will wait safely awhile.

Q. Then it was the lease with the Sac and Fox Indians you went to execute?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. After you got through with the Sac and Fox Indians you went to the lowas, did you not?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. When did you go there?—A. In the January following after the July of 1883.
Q. When did you begin negotiating with the Sac and Fox Indians?—A. I had only talked with them in all about an hour, which was the first, last, and only talk I ever had with them.
Q When was this?—A. It was on the 29th or 30th of June, 1883.
Q. You had never had any talk with them before that?—A. No, sir.
Q. What does this party mean by writing to you on the 19th of June, to come right back and sign the lease ? What does it mean?—A. It means that on the 23d of May preceding that letter I told Mr. Pickett that if he could effect a lease, and would let me know, I would resign and engage in the cattle business with him.
Q. Then you and he made a private arrangement about the matter?—A. Well, sir, I told him that if he could get the lease I would come back and execute it.
Q. You told him this?—A. Yes, sir; most assuredly; and he wrote to me to come back and sign the lease.
Q. And then you telegraphed your partner here in Washington to ask the Commissioner of Indian Affairs if he had any objection to your doing that in anticipation of your resignation?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, you did not have any talk with the Sac and Fox Indians? You left that for Mr. Pickett?—A. Well, sir, I did have some talk with them.

By Mr. Harrison:

Q. Was that before or after you got that letter?—A. It was about the 30th of June.

By the Chairman :

Q. Did you communicate that fact to the Department ?
The Witness. What fact
The Chairman . The fact that you had made a private arrangement with the licensed trader of the Government to enter into a lease of the Sac and Fox land?—A. No, sir.
Q. On the 27th of June you had already entered into that arrangement, and you telegraphed to the Commissioner asking his consent that you should sign a lease, in view of your resignation, upon completion of present orders?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was this the first communication on the subject to the Commissioner?—A. I had already stated the Commissioner that it was my intention to leave the service. I was not satisfied with the position or the pay, and it seemed to be my privilege and duty to make plans for the future.
Q. But still you held on to the Government office until you got hold of a better one?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the better one is what you have been indicating here?—A. No, sir; I had made an arrangement with a gentleman here to engage in the real-estate business, in contemplation of leaving the service, and also to go into the cattle business.
Q. You telegraphed for the Commissioner’s consent to sign a lease and continued in the service afterwards?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. It was in June, 1883, that you made your terms with Mr. Pickett to take the Sac and Fox land?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it was when you were both in some sense Government officers?—A. I simply said to him that at any time he effected a lease with the Sac and Fox Indians I would resign and join with him in the cattle business.

By Mr. Harrison :

Q. There seems to have been a lively time when you were there?—A. No, sir; I think not.

By the Chairman :

Q. Do you object to this letter being made a part of the testimony?—A. Yes, sir; I do most decidedly. If I had supposed that it would be spread on the records I should not have brought it here.
Q. What part do you desire to have put on the record?—A. Only the first part of it.
Q. Does it refer to anything else but the lease business?—A. Yes, sir; it is partly private.

By Mr. Harrison:

Q. Indicate what is private, and see if it does not all relate to this lease business.
The Chairman . And to this particular lease, too, that you were seeking with Mr. Pickett.
The Witness. I object very decidedly to putting it into the record. I hope the honorable Chairman will see from references made to others the reasons why I object to its being put into the public record.
The Chairman . Well, we will suspend the question for awhile.

By Mr. Harrison :

Q. Now when you received that letter you went back to the Sac and Fox Agency immediately?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. You understood that there were other parties who desired to bid for the lease?—A. I understood this after I received the letter.
Q. That letter conveyed that information to you?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. That there were other parties there desiring to lease this land?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you also knew that Mr. Pickett was trying to draw their attention somewhere else? —A. I knew nothing at all of the kind, sir.
Q. You were advised by the letter upon this point; that others were desiring to get a lease, and that he was trying to attract their attention somewhere else?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you went back to the agency did you call a council of the Indians?—A. Chief Keo-Kuck came to me the following,morning before I was out of bed.
Q. What time did you reach the agency?—A. I reached there just before midnight, I think. The chief came to see me and asked if I was ready to make a lease. I told him I was, and he asked if I wanted to see some of the chief men while I was there. I told him yes, and they assembled in the council house.
Q. Who was present?—A. The agent, the agency clerk, Mr. Pickett, myself, and the Indians.
Q. Were there any other white men there?—A. I think the agency physician, was present.
Q. Any one else?—A. The agency clerk was there.
Q. You have already mentioned him. Who else were there?—A. Two or three interpreters were present and several English speaking Indians.
Q. I understand that all the white men there were Government officers?—A. I did not say that, sir.
Q. Well, will you name one who was not?—A. It is easier to name those who were.
Q. I prefer it the other way. Can you name one white man who was present at that council who was not in the Government service as the employé of the agency or of the store?—A. I cannot say from memory.
Q. Were there any outsiders present?—A. There were men at the agency from Kansas trying to get the lease, I believe.
Q. Were they present at the council?—A. No, sir.
Q. Did any of them ask permission to be present?—A. I do not know, sir.
Q. Don’t you recollect that they did?—A. I recollect having a conversation with a Mr. Moon.
Q. Don’t you recollect that he wanted to be present at that council?—A. No sir; I do not.
Q. Was the council held with open doors?—A. Yes, sir; any one was admitted who wanted to come in, and after the house was filled the door was closed, but the windows were left open.
Q. But it was filled just as soon as you and Mr. Pickett and the agent and agency employés went in?—A. Well, sir, as many Indians as desired came in.
Q. Oh, yes, I understand that, but how did it come that these white men happened not to go into the council-house?—A. I believe they had already had their talk with the Indians. But I am not responsible for that.
Q. But it did happen that they did not go into the council-house, did it not?—A. I cannot say that, sir.
Q. But cannot you say that you have no memory of anybody who desired to compete with you in getting this lease, being present in that council-room?—A. I do not recollect anybody else being present.
Q. Yon have said and you do say that you do not recollect the presence of any such men?—A. I do not think so.
Q. If you think of any one now, name him. Can you think of any white man who was present who was not an employé?—A. No, sir.
Q. Then, according to your memory, no one of these competitors was present?—A. To the best of my knowledge they were not present.
Q. How many others were present at the time trying to get a lease?—A. Half a dozen, perhaps.
Q. And of that half a dozen persons who were bidding with you for the lease, not one got inside of this council-house to your recollection?—A. No, sir.
Q. How many who did get in there were to be a party in that arrangement?—A. None, I think, sir, except Mr. Pickett.
Q. Was not Mr. Carter to be a partner?—A. No, sir;. on the contrary, he was my deadly enemy to the day I left the agency.
Q. Did he oppose you in your project?—A. No, sir.
Q. Did you know of his reporting it to the Department?—A. I think I knew it had been reported.
Q. You knew it had been reported?’—A. I knew it had been called to the attention of the Department.
Q. By Mr. Carter?—A. No, sir.
Q. He was your deadly enemy?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there any one else present who had an interest in the lease with you?—A. No, sir.
Q. You were to be the sole partners?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was not your partner here in Washington interested?—A. Mr. Parker was interested through me. It was understood that he was to have an interest.
Q. What official position did he occupy?—A. He had been connected with the city post-office.
Q. In what capacity?—A. As assistant postmaster.
Q. Was he a Government officer at the time the lease was made?—A. No, sir; he had left the Government employ.
Q. What did you say to the Indians in that council you held? Did you make a speech to them?—A. Yea, sir; I spoke to them.
Q. Give us your speech.—A. I told them that they should talk to me as to one not connected with the service, but as a private citizen.
Q. How could they do it when you were a Government officer?—A. I had tendered my resignation.
The Chairman Well, sir, we have gone over all that.
The Witness. But I say I had tendered my resignation, and I acted upon that hypothesis.
Q. Well, what did you tell them?—A. I told them if they wanted to lease their land to us that I was prepared to lease the land as soon as I left the Government service.
Q. Was that all you said?—A. That was about all I said.
Q. But did you say nothing about the price; that was very important?—A. I told them that I was willing to give them 2 cents an acre. That was all I could afford to give and all the land was worth.
Q. Did you talk to them as to the particular part you were to occupy?—A. Yes, sir; that was discussed.
Q. How much land did that include?—A. One hundred and eighty-five thousand acres.
Q. What is the total amount of acres in the reservation?—A. I don’t know exactly.
Q. But you were to lease the entire reservation, were you not?—A. No, sir. I knew we were not leasing all of it. I knew that their reservation extended on the south to the Canada River, and that the part we were to occupy was on the north. I knew we were taking about one-third or one-quarter of it.
Q. Was that all of your speech that you can recollect now?—A.. I think that was about all.
Q. Did you say anything about the policy of the Government in regard to leases?—A. No, sir.
Q. Did you say anything about their holding their reservation under Executive order?—A. No, sir.
Q. Was that question raised at all?—A. No, sir.
Q. That was not in your speech?—A. No, sir.
Q. Well, sir, when you got through your speech, did any one else speak?—A. Mr. Pickett spoke.
Q. Mr. Pickett spoke?—A. Mr. Pickett spoke.
Q. Well, what did he say?—A. He told them substantially what I had before stated.
Q. What did they say?—A. They said some men had come over from Kansas to make a lease, and that they had postponed the matter for thirty days, and that at the end of that time they would notify me.
Q. Did you get a lease there?—A. No, sir; we never got a lease there.
Q. Did Mr. Pickett?—A. Not that I know of.
Q. Did you ever hear of his getting a lease there?—A. No, sir; I never heard that he did.
Q. Well, when you failed there, how long was it before you went and negotiated for the other lease?—A. About seven or eight months.
Q. How did that come about?—A. Well, Mr. Pickett suggested to me that a lease might be obtained.
Q. Did he say a lease could be obtained?—A. He said he thought so.
Q. Was this while you were at the agency?—A. Yes, sir; it was while I was at the agency.
Q. He said he thought a lease could be obtained?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you send for some of the Indians?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did they come?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. You talked with them?—A. No, sir.
Q. Did Mr. Pickett talk with them?—A. I cannot say. He did not talk with them in my presence.
Q. You went over in June to see them?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who went with you?—A. Mr. Pickett.
Q. Anybody else?—A. No, sir.
Q. You did not tell the agent what you were going over there for?—A. No, sir; we did not.
Q. How was it that you did not let Mr. Carter know anything about it?—A. For the reason that he was unfriendly toward me.
Q. You were afraid he might interfere with your arrangement?—A. No, sir.
Q. I suppose you understood he was the agent in charge there?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. You understood that it was not lawful to negotiate a lease without his knowledge?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. And yet, knowing that, you went to negotiate a lease?—A. Yes, sir; but the lease was executed in his presence.
Q. But you knew you were doing an unlawful thing?—A. In one sense it was unlawful; but it is a thing that is done in every part of the country to-day.
Q. Did you understand that it was a part of your duty to report the transaction?—A. No, sir.
Q. And yet you went over to negotiate a lease which was to embrace the whole Iowa Reservation?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, you went there and took Mr. Pickett with you?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. And called the Indians together?—A. No, sir; I drove to their camp myself, and found them there together.
Q. Did you not get them together?—A. Yes, sir; we got them together in one of their tepees.
Q. Did you make a speech to them?—A. I made no formal speech.
Q. What did you say to them?—A. I simply told them that I understood that they wanted to lease their reservation, and I had come to do that if they wanted to make a lease. They said that other men had been there to make a lease, and that the matter had been discussed pretty generally.
Q. Did they say who had been there?—A. They said that this Mr. Berry, who has already testified here, had tried to make a lease, and that Mr. Butler and others had also tried.
Q. And it was in that conversation, getting back to the point again, that you offered to use your influence?—A. Well, sir, they talked of the uncertain tenure of their land, being held by Executive order, and they wanted a permanent reservation.
Q. And you told them in the course of your speech that you would use your utmost influence to obtain a permanent reservation for them?—A. I said I would do all I could to help them.
Q. Now, sir, did you not think that that promise being made by you, a Government officer, was influential in getting the lease?—A. No, sir; I do not, because I had helped them in various ways in the past, and they knew I was friendly to them.
Q. But you had not done anything in that direction yet?—A. No, sir.
Q. Why?—A. My reason is the fact that they declined at the time to make the lease to us.
Q. How soon after this was it that you made the lease?—A. The lease was executed on the 31st of March.
Q. How long after this council was it?—A. About three months.
Q. Did you go there again?—A. No, sir; I never saw them again.
Q. Who effected the lease finally?—A. Mr. Pickett. After I left the agency they sent a man named Joe Vedder after me, who went 70 or 80 miles to overtake me, and ask me to return to their camp. He asked me to return and effect the lease.
Q. What did you tell him?—A. I said, "No; I do not think they are disposed to lease," and I said I was not inclined to entertain the proposition. He urged me, and I said, "You can see Mr. Pickett, and if you and he agree upon an honorable lease, and I am out of the service, I will join Mr. Pickett to get it."
Q. Did you not know and feel at the time that if a Government officer made a promise of that kind in connection with a private contract, that that was calculated to have an influence upon them in determining whether they should give you or somebody else the lease?—A. No, sir; I do not.
Q. When were you notified the lease had been made?—A. Well, sir, the last of March.
Q. Did you go back?—A. No, sir. I executed the lease in Winfield, Kans.
Q. What time did you leave the Indian service?—A. The 10th of March.
Q. When was the lease executed?—A. The lease was executed on the 31st of March.
Q. When did it come into your possession?—A. On that day.
Q. When did you know it was agreed upon?—A. The latter part of March.
Q. You knew it was negotiated but not agreed upon the latter part of March?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you a copy of that lease?—A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. Will you produce it?—A. Yes, sir; we will be happy to have you gentlemen examine it. It is at your service.
Q. You paid 2 cents an acre?—A. No, sir; it was 60 cents a head, which was just twice what other people had been paying in the same neighborhood at the time.
Q. Did it embrace any given number of acres, or did it give exclusive right to the whole reservation?—A. It gave us exclusive right to the whole reservation.
Q. Sixty cents a head for as many cattle as you might put upon it?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. For ten years?—A. Yes, sir; my understanding was that it would be for ten years. When I arrived at Arkansas City I found that it was for live years, and I said, "I can hardly get in motion for five years. I am not willing to execute the lease for five years; but if you will make it for ten years I will execute it."
Q. And they made it for ten years?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then you signed it?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you pay anything at the time?—A. Yes, sir; we paid $2,000 at the time the lease was made.
Q. Have you paid any since?—A. No, sir.
Q. How many cattle have you on the range?—A. Between 3,500 and 4,000, which were delivered there last June.
Q. You advanced this money?—A. Yes, sir; it was paid in advance.
Q. How was it paid?—A. I made the rolls up with my own hands.
Q. How did you come to do that, and where did you go to pay it?—A. I went right to their camp, and I made their pay roll as accurate as if it was to pass the accounting officer of the Treasury.
Q. Did any one witness it?—A. Two or three disinterested parties—Mr. Wells; Murray, the interpreter; and Rouendour, another interpreter.
Q. Are these Government interpreters?—A. There is no Government interpreter at that agency who can speak the Iowa language.
Q. Was there any official present?—A. The agent was asked to come, but he did not come.
Q. How many acres does this contain?—A. I do not know the number of acres specifically; but, sir, so far as I know, there are about 225,000 acres in the whole reservation.

By the Chairman :

Q. But the lease embraced the whole?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you agree to fence it in?—A. No, sir.
Q. There was no stipulation to fence?—A. No, sir.
Q. Then your cattle roam over the entire reservation, and if an Indian wishes to cultivate a piece of land it is his business to keep the cattle off?—A. Certainly.
Q. Are the Indians allowed to use any of the land for grazing?—A. Yes, sir; the lease makes that stipulation.
Q. Where is that lease?—A. It is locked up at my office. I will lay it before the committee.
Q. Have you had any correspondence with your partner in reference to the lease?—A. Yes, sir; I have had some private correspondence with my partner in regard to making this lease.
Q. Do you object to producing that correspondence?—A. Well, Mr.Chairman, I do not know that I object, but I do not care to lay my private affairs before the public.
The Chairman . But, sir, we do not regard it in that light. We do not regard any correspondence you have had while a Government officer in this matter of the lease as a private matter.
The Witness. Out of respect to the gentlemen named in the letter I showed the committee, I want to say that I only desired to show a portion of the letter. I am not willing that my private correspondence should be laid before the public to gratify idle curiosity.
Mr. Harrison. It is not a question of gratifying anybody’s curiosity. We are here to investigate the matter of the leases. You were a Government officer at this time and we hold that these matters are public.
The Witness. I understand the committee to think so.
Mr. Harrison. And I think the public is entitled to know about this matter.
The Witness. Gentlemen, I have in my hand further correspondence in reference to this matter, which I intended to lay before the committee to establish certain facts, but under the circumstances I beg leave to decline unless the committee insist. But I do so with great respect.
Mr. Harrison. You had better be careful about producing it if you do not desire it to go on the record.

By the Chairman :

Q. Mr. Townsend, how is it that this telegram which you produced here, asking the consent of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, is in your own handwriting? Where is the original?—A. I tried to get it in anticipation of this investigation, and I went to the Western Union telegraph office to get the original but could not get it.
Q. Where did you make that copy?—A. At Cherryvale, Kans.
Q. At what time?—A. On the 27th pf June, 1883, the day the telegram was sent.
Q. So you were prepared at that time?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. You sent this telegram from Cherryvale, Kans.?—A. Yes, sir. At the time I sent the telegram I was aware that my enemies were trying to injure me; and it was only to protect myself against such occasions as this that I took a copy of the telegram.
Q. Was it that which led you to word it in this way, that you desired to get the consent of the Commissioner in view of your resignation, and after you had completed certain duties?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was to protect yourself against those who might criticize your action as a Government officer.

By Mr. Harrison :

Q. Are you also engaged as a partner in the agency store with Mr. Pickett?—A. Yes, sir. I have been engaged in the agency store with Mr. Pickett since I left the Government service.
Q. When did you become a partner of Mr. Pickett?—A. I think it was last September, but I am not sure. I think the license was last September or October.

By the Chairman :

Q. Then the lessees of the whole Iowa reservation are the sole licensed traders also?—A. No, sir; there are other parties interested in the store.
The Chairman. Exactly. Well, who else is interested beside Mr. Pickett and yourself?
The Witness. Mr. Wells.
Q. Is he interested in the lease?—A. No, sir; he is not.
Q. This other man, Mr. Wells, then, is a partner with the traders?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. And not in the lease?—A. No, sir.
Q. Then the same men who are the lessees of the entire reservation are the traders of the Government?—A. They are interested in the store, sir.
Q. Is that known to the Government?—A. I presume so.
Q. You made the lease in the month of March, and in November afterwards you became a licensed trader?—A. I think it was September or October, sir.
Q. Mr. Pickett continued a licensed trader all the time, did he not?—A. Yes, sir.

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