Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs

Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs - 1885

Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs 1885
ALBERT T. BABBITT. Washington, D. C., January 15, 1885. ALBERT T. BABBITT sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Question. What is your full name?—Answer. Albert T. Babbitt. Q. Where do you reside?—A. At Cheyenne, Wyoming Territory. Q. What business are you engaged in?—A. I am the general manager of the Standard Cattle Company. Q. Have you been engaged in that business in the Indian Territory?—A Well I have been engaged in the business in Wyoming Territory seven years, and for three years in the Territory. I am now with the Standard Cattle Company there. Q. Of what Indians did you make the lease?—A. The lease was made with the Cheyenne and Arapaho Indians. Q. Did this company make the lease?—A. No, sir; they got it second hand. Q. When did your company obtain it?—A. I should think about three months after it was granted to him. Q. Did you ever have any conversations with the Secretary of the Interior upon the subject of leases?—A. I was here for two or three weeks with Col. R. D. Hunter, of Saint Louis, Mo.; I think it was in February, 1883, that I was here with Colonel Hunter and one or two other gentlemen, and we had occasional interviews with the Secretary, the effort being to gain his assent and obtain his assurances that if we obtained the, leases he would confirm them. But we did not succeed in getting a pledge of that kind. I think the other gentlemen here with Colonel Hunter and myself were ex-Senator Platt and George R. Blanchard, of the Erie Road. The Secretary finally said this to us, "If you get along well, and there is no difficulty, you shall not be disturbed." While here Colonel Hunter received a telegram from his partner, who was in the Territory, asking him to hurry down there. I asked him what it meant. He said he supposed the leases were going to be made with the Cheyenne and Arapahoes. I telegraphed to our eastern manager, who was in Boston, to attend to the matter for us, and we obtained a lease, taking by way of compromise with others, the southern portion of the land. Q. In other words, you arranged with some persons who had already effected a lease?—A. Yes, sir. Q. To whom do you pay the rental?—A. We pay it directly to the Indians. Q. Did you pay anything to the party you obtained the lease from?—A. Yes, sir. Do you want the amount I I will give it if you insist. The Chairman .I do not know that we can insist upon it, but we would like to know. The Witness. We paid $18,000 for the lease. Q. Have you any objection to telling who compose the Standard Cattle Company?—A. The present officers are William G. Weld, of Boston, president; Nathaniel Thayer, of Boston, secretary; F. M. Weld, of Boston, is a stockholder; also,Samuel Johnson, E. V. R. Thayer, Charles Merriam. In New York th company are George R. Blanchard, lately vice-president of the Erie Railroad, and I am myself much the largest stockholder. I own something over one-third. The association was incorporated under the laws of Wyoming; and we have in Wyoming and in the Territory large herds of cattle. Q. Do you know of any expenditure of money or other valuable thing being used to obtain the lease?—A. No, sir. Q. Do you know the circumstances under which the lease was obtained?—A. Only from tradition. I heard that parties who were down there at the time the leases were made obtained them from the Indian council, which was in session deliberating upon the matter for three or four days. Q. Did you ever hear that anything was paid to get the leases?—A. No, sir. Q. You have no knowledge of anything of the kind?—A. No, sir. Q. How many payments of rental have you made?—A. We commenced in May, 1883, and have paid every six months since, but I have no personal knowledge of the actual payments. Q. How are the payments made?—A. We send the money to Major Hood, of Emporia, Kans. He sends out a notice beforehand when the payments are due, and we remit to him. Q. Do you employ Indians in herding?—A. No, sir; but I think other cattlemen are doing so, and it is a matter I intend to accomplish. Q. If all these men would make it a business to employ Indians, could they, in that way, enlist a good many?—A. Yes, sir; its effect would be far-reaching. The influence would extend beyond their own boundaries. Q. Are you acquainted with the reservation?—A. No, sir; I have only been over the range. Q. Do you know what is left for the use of the Indians?—A. No, sir. Q. What is the character of the land?—A. I do not know. Q. Have you much knowledge of the character of those Indians?—A. No. sir; very little. I saw but few when I was there; but those I saw were very friendly and curious. Q. From your experience, can you think of any different method than the present one, which would be better?—A. I can suggest nothing better. Q. Would the matter of these leases be better or not, if under the control of the Department?—A. That I have never thought of. Q. State whether, in your opinion, paying it per capita is better than if it were put into the hands of some one to expend for them in building houses and making farms, and in other ways which would be to their benefit?—A. If we were to start anew, and had a more robust policy, and they were made to feel their subjection more, I should feel that it would be well to go in that direction. These particular Indians are rather demoralized. Q. I believe they have some bands among them that terrorize the others?—A. Yes, sir. Q. I understand they are well armed?—A. Yes, sir; some of them are. Q. Do they make depredations upon your cattle?—A. There are Indians who, whenever cattle stray outside, take them. Q. Is there anything else you can suggest that will be of benefit to us?—A. I do not think of anything. It has seemed to me that, in view of the rations of these Indians having been cut down, this lease money has supplemented their income in a very fortunate way. It has also this result: That the Indians are dealing with responsible parties, who pay them promptly. Without these leases the Indians would be at the mercy of parties who would pay nothing, and probably there would be blood shed. Return To Testimony Index.
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Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs
1885

ALBERT T. BABBITT.

Washington, D. C., January 15, 1885.

ALBERT T. BABBITT sworn and examined.
By the Chairman:
Question. What is your full name?—Answer. Albert T. Babbitt.
Q. Where do you reside?—A. At Cheyenne, Wyoming Territory.
Q. What business are you engaged in?—A. I am the general manager of the Standard Cattle Company.
Q. Have you been engaged in that business in the Indian Territory?—A Well I have been engaged in the business in Wyoming Territory seven years, and for three years in the Territory. I am now with the Standard Cattle Company there.
Q. Of what Indians did you make the lease?—A. The lease was made with the Cheyenne and Arapaho Indians.
Q. Did this company make the lease?—A. No, sir; they got it second hand.
Q. When did your company obtain it?—A. I should think about three months after it was granted to him.
Q. Did you ever have any conversations with the Secretary of the Interior upon the subject of leases?—A. I was here for two or three weeks with Col. R. D. Hunter, of Saint Louis, Mo.; I think it was in February, 1883, that I was here with Colonel Hunter and one or two other gentlemen, and we had occasional interviews with the Secretary, the effort being to gain his assent and obtain his assurances that if we obtained the, leases he would confirm them. But we did not succeed in getting a pledge of that kind. I think the other gentlemen here with Colonel Hunter and myself were ex-Senator Platt and George R. Blanchard, of the Erie Road. The Secretary finally said this to us, "If you get along well, and there is no difficulty, you shall not be disturbed." While here Colonel Hunter received a telegram from his partner, who was in the Territory, asking him to hurry down there. I asked him what it meant. He said he supposed the leases were going to be made with the Cheyenne and Arapahoes. I telegraphed to our eastern manager, who was in Boston, to attend to the matter for us, and we obtained a lease, taking by way of compromise with others, the southern portion of the land.
Q. In other words, you arranged with some persons who had already effected a lease?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. To whom do you pay the rental?—A. We pay it directly to the Indians.
Q. Did you pay anything to the party you obtained the lease from?—A. Yes, sir. Do you want the amount I I will give it if you insist.
The Chairman .I do not know that we can insist upon it, but we would like to know.
The Witness. We paid $18,000 for the lease.
Q. Have you any objection to telling who compose the Standard Cattle Company?—A. The present officers are William G. Weld, of Boston, president; Nathaniel Thayer, of Boston, secretary; F. M. Weld, of Boston, is a stockholder; also,Samuel Johnson, E. V. R. Thayer, Charles Merriam. In New York th company are George R. Blanchard, lately vice-president of the Erie Railroad, and I am myself much the largest stockholder. I own something over one-third. The association was incorporated under the laws of Wyoming; and we have in Wyoming and in the Territory large herds of cattle.
Q. Do you know of any expenditure of money or other valuable thing being used to obtain the lease?—A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know the circumstances under which the lease was obtained?—A. Only from tradition. I heard that parties who were down there at the time the leases were made obtained them from the Indian council, which was in session deliberating upon the matter for three or four days.
Q. Did you ever hear that anything was paid to get the leases?—A. No, sir.
Q. You have no knowledge of anything of the kind?—A. No, sir.
Q. How many payments of rental have you made?—A. We commenced in May, 1883, and have paid every six months since, but I have no personal knowledge of the actual payments.
Q. How are the payments made?—A. We send the money to Major Hood, of Emporia, Kans. He sends out a notice beforehand when the payments are due, and we remit to him.
Q. Do you employ Indians in herding?—A. No, sir; but I think other cattlemen are doing so, and it is a matter I intend to accomplish.
Q. If all these men would make it a business to employ Indians, could they, in that way, enlist a good many?—A. Yes, sir; its effect would be far-reaching. The influence would extend beyond their own boundaries.
Q. Are you acquainted with the reservation?—A. No, sir; I have only been over the range.
Q. Do you know what is left for the use of the Indians?—A.
No, sir. Q. What is the character of the land?—A. I do not know.
Q. Have you much knowledge of the character of those Indians?—A. No. sir; very little. I saw but few when I was there; but those I saw were very friendly and curious.
Q. From your experience, can you think of any different method than the present one, which would be better?—A. I can suggest nothing better.
Q. Would the matter of these leases be better or not, if under the control of the Department?—A. That I have never thought of.
Q. State whether, in your opinion, paying it per capita is better than if it were put into the hands of some one to expend for them in building houses and making farms, and in other ways which would be to their benefit?—A. If we were to start anew, and had a more robust policy, and they were made to feel their subjection more, I should feel that it would be well to go in that direction. These particular Indians are rather demoralized.
Q. I believe they have some bands among them that terrorize the others?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. I understand they are well armed?—A. Yes, sir; some of them are.
Q. Do they make depredations upon your cattle?—A. There are Indians who, whenever cattle stray outside, take them.
Q. Is there anything else you can suggest that will be of benefit to us?—A. I do not think of anything. It has seemed to me that, in view of the rations of these Indians having been cut down, this lease money has supplemented their income in a very fortunate way. It has also this result: That the Indians are dealing with responsible parties, who pay them promptly. Without these leases the Indians would be at the mercy of parties who would pay nothing, and probably there would be blood shed.

Return To Testimony Index.

This site may be freely linked, but not duplicated without consent.
All rights reserved. Commercial use of material within this site is prohibited.
The copyright (s) on this page must appear on all copied and/or printed material.
© 2024 by C.S.L.S.A. Site Coordinator