Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs

Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs - 1885

Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs 1885
A. E. IVEY. A. E. IVEY sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Question. Where do you live?—Answer. I live at Tahlequah, in the Indian Territory. Q. How long have you lived there?—A. I have lived there and at Vinita for eight years. Q. What is your business?—A. I am an editor, and have been engaged in other pursuits. Q. What portion of the time have you lived at Tahlequah?—A. About half of the time. Q. Which half?—A. Well, sir, I lived at these places alternately. During the winter I have lived mostly at Tahlequah, and during the summer at Vinita. Q. Have you been there during the sessions of the legislature, that is, at Tahlequah? That is the capital of the Cherokee Nation, is it not?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you been there during the sessions of the legislature?—A. Yes, sir; I have been present at every regular session since 1877. Q. Were you there when they held a special session of their council upon the question of leasing their lands?—A. No, sir. Q. Where were you then?—A. I was in Texas. Q. How long had you been absent when that session was held?—A. About two months. Q. Are you a member of the tribe?—A. Yes, sir; I am a Cherokee Indian. By Mr. Ingalls: Q. Are you a Cherokee by birth, or marriage?—A. By birth, sir.; Q. Soon after that session you returned?—A. Yes, sir. Q. That is, after the special session?—A. I could not say exactly, but it was soon after. It was late in May when the session was held, and I was back in July. Q. What knowledge had you of the means taken to obtain that legislation?—A. When I returned home from Texas, where I had been on business; when I returned to Vinita, where I had been postmaster, a great many citizens came to ask me, as a newspaper man, to write something about the matter, and they said it was a rotten transaction. So many came to me to ask if something could not be done that I told them I thought the only thing to do was to write a letter to the Secretary of the Interior and ask him not to approve the lease. That would give us a chance; if the council took a notion to annul the contract they could do it with less hindrance. Q. Did anybody write to the Secretary of the Interior?—A. Yes, sir; I wrote to him. Q. What did you tell him?—A. Well, sir, my letter is contained in Senate Executive Document 54, Forty-eighth Congress, first session. Q. What did you tell him in that letter?—A. I told him it was a rotten transaction, and I thought it would be proved so to be, as I think now. Q. What was it that led you to make the statement to the Secretary? What had you heard ?—A. Well, men told me they were offered certain considerations to vote for the lease. Q. Were they members of the council?—A. Yes, sir; they were members of the council. Q. Can you give their names?—A. Yes, sir; I can give you two names. Q. Well, go on and give them.—A. John Sanders, and Samuel H. Downing, who is now dead. Q. Were there any others?—A. I don’t remember whether there were any others or not. Q. Where does Mr. Sanders live?—A. He lives at Tahlequah. Q. What did he tell you?—A. He said he was offered $400. Q. Did he tell you by whom this $400 was offered?—A. No, sir; he did not say. He said he could not tell unless he was put upon oath. By Mr. Cameron: Q. Did you ask him who the party was who made this offer?—A. I don’t know that I did; but he said he would not tell who made the offer unless he was put under oath. By Mr. Ingalls: Q. He told you he would not state it except under oath?—A. Yes, sir. By the Chairman : Q. He said he was offered $400 if he would vote for it?—A. Yes, sir. I was talking to him, and he said be was offered $400, but would have to be put under oath before he would tell by whom. Q. Did you ask him who offered it?—A. I don’t remember whether I did or not. Q. Was he opposed to the bill? Did he finally vote against it?—A. Yes, sir; I believe he did; but I would not be certain about that. Q. Do you know what the vote was on its passage?—A. Well, sir, I talked to the clerk of the senate and the clerk of the house, and my recollection is that it passed the senate by two majority, and the house by one or two. Q. You understand that it was a close vote in both branches of the legislature?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you hear any other statement of the same character as that you have been testifying about?—A. I heard Dr. Adair relate a conversation he had with Major Drumm. It was relating to leasing, and was a conversation with Major Drumm after the passage of the bill authorizing the lease. Q. State what that is?—A. He said he went up to congratulate Major Drumm, and he said it costs us like—well, I don’t know what he said, but that it costs pretty high. That is a good benefit, and of course we have to pay for that. Yes, sir, he said, some of them Indians are about as high as Kansas fellows. [Laughter.] Q. Did he state what the price was, what amount of money it cost?—A. I don’t know. Q. Did he intimate bow much it cost?—A. Yes, sir; I think so; that was Mr. Adair’s conversation with me. He was a superintendent out there, which is a considerable personage amongst us. Q. What did Mr. Adair intimate that it cost?—A. I don’t know the exact sum, but he said the damned Indians were pretty high [laughter] —higher than he thought they were. Q. Did he allude to the high price they were to pay as rental for the land?— A. No, sir; he did not understand the allusion to be to the high rental, but to something else. I asked him particularly about that, being opposed to the lease myself. Q. What did be say about that?—A. He said that is in regard to the price we paid outside of the $100,000 rental. Q. Did you get any intimation of how large a sum that was?—A. Yes, sir; they thought it was about $50,000, which was expended outside of the $100,000 rental. Q. That was the general talk?—A. Yes sir; that was the general talk. Q. From what source did you get that information?—A. Well, I got it from the full-bloods and half breeds, and from all, in fact. Q. Did you get it from Indians connected with the legislature?—A. Yes, sir; from those connected with the legislature, and from those out-side—from both—from parties who were merchants in Tahlequah. Q. They were Indians who were opposed to the lease?—A. Yes, sir; they were personal Indians who were opposed to the lease and those who were not. Q. Then it was pro and con?—A. Yes, sir; I have heard both sides. Q. You had some notion of going into the cattle business yourself, did you not?—A. Yes, sir; I was going into the business there. Q. Were you excluded by this lease, or were you taken in by these lessees?—A. No, sir; I was not taken in. Q. Did yon try to get in?—A. No, sir. Q. Had you commenced operations as cattlemen before the lease was executed?—A. Well, yes, sir; but, gentlemen, can I go on and explain the matter in my own way? The Chairman . Yes, sir. A. Well, I went there under a decision of the Attorney-General that we had a right to occupy—that is, to graze our cattle on—the public domain. I went and started a range. I was poor like all the rest of our folks; but, as I said, I went and started a range. I took my range in the waters of the Osage and Bluff Creeks, which I believe runs up in that country. Our assessor was there, and he told me there was a vacant spot of ground. Q. Well, did you stock it?—A. The first year I did not have any cattle. Then I let it to a man named Winthrop, and he agreed the first year to pay me in money, and the next year in cattle. Q. Were there any other parties besides yourself?—A. Yes, sir; there were several parties. We were going into the cattle business, or try to go into it. Q. Well, who were the parties?—A. There was Schrimpshire and Foreman, and quite a number of our people there on this land. Q. Why didn’t you go on?—A. This council "busted" us up. [Laughter.] Q. Did you have notice to move, or did you infer after this lease was made that you must leave? Did you go of your own accord; did you go without notice?—A. I didn’t go, but I tried to stay; but they would not recognize my claim. Q. Who would not recognize your claim?—A. These lessees, I guess. Q. Who was it that failed to recognize it; any particular person?—A. Well, the man I had leased to failed to recognize it. He wrote me letters stating that he could not stay on my range any longer; that the receiver had taken charge of it. Q. Then he went off and left it?—A. No, sir; he stood in with these fellows after that. [Laughter.] Q. And staid there you say and joined the others?—A. He must have done that. Q. Did you make any claim for remuneration?—A. I never did. Q. Did you, in your communication to the Secretary of the Interior, make any complaint of the fact that you could not occupy the land?—A. I asked him some questions. Q. What did you say to him? Did you inquire whether you. could occupy it?—A. Yes, sir. Q. What did he tell you?—A. I forget now just what he did tell me. By Mr. Ingalls: Q. Was this man your partner that you spoke of as leaving your range? By the Chairman : Mr. Ingalls, I understand that he leased it to this man, who was to pay him in money the first year and then in cattle. Q. You were going into the business with what you obtained from him for the use of that range, were you not?—A. Yes, sir. Q. You don’t remember what the Secretary told you?—A. I don’t know whether he answered that letter at all. Q. Have you given us all you know about the matter?—A. No, sir. Q. Well, give us all you know. What did the dead man say to you? The Witness. Do you mean the man Downing? The Chairman . Yes. A. He was asked why be was going to vote for the lease, and be said he might as well do it because it was just like picking up so much money in the road; that it was going to pass any way by one vote. Q. You said he told you that it was like picking up so much money in the road?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you hear him say that?—A. Yes, sir; he said that in the presence of Mr. Rasmus. By Mr. Ingalls: Q. What did you say hie name was—Rasmus?—A. Yes, sir; he is a merchant at Tahlequah. By the Chairman : Q. How much money did he say it was equivalent to picking up in the street?—A. I think he said it was something like $250 or $300. Q. Now I want you to state it as definitely as you can.—A. Yes, sir; it was something along there. Q. Now will you state to us as clearly as you can what he said. What position did this man Downing hold?—A. Well, sir, he was elected a member of the legislature at the time the special session was held. Q. He was a member of the council then?—A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Harrison : Q. Do I understand you to say that he was elected at a general election?—A. No, sir; the election was held to fill a vacancy. By the Chairman : Q. Well, go on and tell us what you know about the matter.—A. I told him, I think, it was contrary to our constitution, and also very impolitic. Besides this person, Iots of men came to see me and talk the matter over, men who knew that I was opposed to the lease. I read the constitution to them, and said to them, "How can you vote for this thing? Do you not know that it is contrary to our constitution?" I spoke to Mr. Downing in this way, and also to others. Mr. Downing replied, "Well, you know I am consumptive, and I can’t stay here very long, and I need the money, and it is just like picking it up in the road. It was going to pass anyhow, and I can get that much money. Q. What was the amount, did you say?—A. It was between $250 and $300 Q. Now, Mr. Ivey, we want you to state what you know as accurately as you can.—A. Well, I asked the parties about this matter who were present when the money was counted. Q. What do you mean by that?—A. I mean when the money was paid to him. Mr. Rasmus was a merchant at Tahlequah, and Mr. Downing owed Mr. Rasmus a considerable sum tif money. He was a son of the old chief, and he didn’t have much money. He kept a running account with Rasmus. The next day after the bill passed he settled his bill with Rasmus. He counted the money at Te-hee’s house. Q. Who is Te-hee?—A. He is a full-blood. Q. Before whom did he count it?—A. Daniel Te-hee. Mr. Cameron. Tell us all you know about it. If you know anything further we would like to have it. A. It would take me too long to tell it all. Mr. Ingalls. Tell all you know. Mr. Cameron. Go on and tell it in your own way. The Chairman . That was what we summoned you here for. The Witness. Well, gentlemen, I will commence and give you a statement. I was in Texas when the May council came on in extra session. I had been at Tahlequah as committee clerk and national editor and also national publisher, and I had gone to Texas. When the council was called together the matter of leases was under consideration among the people, and I had talked to several persons from our district upon the subject. I was then at Vinita. These parties had come to ask me about the constitutionality of the leases. I referred them to the constitution and read it to them; I said you can’t do that, the only way is to lease it to the highest bidder and to specify not less than $100,000. Do it constitutionally and then the Department will back us. After I came back I talked with some of the same men who were speaking about how bad it was and who had voted for it. I would talk around amongst them about one thing and the other, and they began to ask me, "Gus, can’t you help us; can’t you write a:letter to the Secretary of the Interior and ask him not to let this thing go on in this way."I said we can write to the Secretary and ask him not to approve the lease, and in case it is too bad we can then revoke it and he will not approve it. Well, I wrote the letter at the instance of prominent men, who would talk to me about it. After my letter came out a great many came to me and said that that was all right. Q. What did Mr. Teller say?—A. Mr. Teller said it was not the policy of the Department to approve these leases, but as long as we countenanced these leases the Department would not interfere. In fact, every day I had men come to me and tell me that such a fellow had gotten so much money; that so and so had so much money and had built a nice house. Mr. Harrison. Can you mention the name of the man who had built a nice house? By Mr. Ingalls: Q. So and so is a little indefinite?—A. Yes, sir; I know that is so. Q. Can you name some of them? Mr. Harrison. Who is the man who is said to have built a nice house? By the Chairman : Q. Who was alluded to as having built a nice house?—A. Major Scales, for one. Q. Give the name of all you think of. By Mr. Harrison : Q. Who was Major Scales?—A. He was the chief justice of the supreme court. Q. What! A chief justice at the time the leases were made? By the Chairman : Q. How could he affect the legislation?—A. Well, sir; that was the talk. Q. It was only talk then?—A. Yes, sir; it was only talk. By Mr. Ingalls: Q. You say it was just talk?—A. Yes, sir; they told me that so and so got so much money for using his influence. By the Chairman : Q. Do you speak of members of the senate and house?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Can you name any members of either the senate or house who were mentioned as having received money?—A. No, sir; not specifically. Q. You say that these men you have spoken of received money from these parties?—A. I did not say that they received money; that is, I said that Mr. Downing received it, but the other man, he was only offered it. By Mr. Ingalls: Q. The other man whom you say received it is dead, is he not?—A. Yes, sir. Q. He is dead, and cannot deny it. The Witness. These men would come to me and say so and so had received money. Q. Who were these men that came to you?—A. Well, they were principally fall bloods. Q. Were they opposed to the bill?—A. Yes, sir; they were all pretty much opposed to it, but finally when they passed the bill paying it out per capita it became popular. By the Chairman: Q. Do you think that provision of the bill carried it?—A. No, sir. Q. What then?—A. I think the $50,000 carried it. [Laughter.] Q. What use do you understand was made of the $50,000 that carried the bill through?—A. Well, sir; I think that certain fellows got benefits. Q. Please be as specific as you can as to who those fellows were.—A. I cannot be specific on that point, because you cannot get the men who received the money to say anything about it, but those who were merely offered it will talk. Q. Give us some of the names then, please.—A. Mr. French Rowe was offered money. Q. Was he a member of the council?—A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Ingalls: Q. Is it R-o-w-e?—A. Yes, sir. By the Chairman: Q. How much did he say he was offered?—A. He said he was offered $20. Q. Who did he say offered him this $20?—A. It was offered to him by another member of the council. He said that Sanders offered him $20. By Mr. Ingalls: Q. Was that the same Mr. Sanders who was offered $250 to vote for it himself?—A. No, sir; it was another man. By the Chairman: Q. Were there any others?—A. None that I can name now, sir. By Mr. Gorman: Q. Did you talk to Mr. Crittenden about this matter?—A. Mr. Crittenden is here, sir, and can answer for himself. Q. But I asked you the question?—A. Yes, sir; I have talked to him about it. Q. What does he say?—A. He said a certain man went to him and told him he could make three or four hundred dollars if he would vote for the bill. Q. Is that all ? Give us the whole of your conversation.—A. That was about the substance of it. He said that a certain party had told him that he could make three or four hundred dollars if he voted for the bill. Q. Give us the whole of your conversation and where it occurred.—A. This conversation occurred in a hotel at Tahlequah. I told him they were getting up an investigation, and be said he would like to get to tell a few things before the investigating committee. He was a member of the committee having the matter under consideration. And he also said that John Sanders could tell the committee a good deal. Q. He told you that certain parties told him that be could make three or four hundred dollars if he supported the bill?—A. Yes, sir; he said he thought the other fellow was going to "whack up"with him. Q. Who was the fellow?—A. I don’t know. Q. When was this conversation?—A. It was just after our council closed in extra session. Q. Have you talked with him since about it?—A. Yes, sir; we talked about it on the road coming here; we came here together. Q. Did you talk over this matter again with him?—A. Not specially, sir. I just asked him about it, and he repeated the same thing. In fact we have talked about it to-day. Q. Did he repeat the same thing to-day?—A. Yes, sir. Q. He did not state who the man was?—A. No, sir. Q. After this statement did you tell Bushyhead what you had heard?—A. I had a talk with him a day or two before I came here. Q. Now tell us what was said.—A. I received a letter stating that Mr. Bushyhead wanted to impeach my evidence, and stating that I was not a responsible party. I handed it to him and asked him how it came about, because I had always stood well with him, and he said that it was all a lie. He said "you and I have always been personal friends, although of different politics; we have always gotten along well, for," he said, "I could not and would not do such a thing as that." I said "you could not if you wanted," and he said he knew that. Q. Did you talk with him about this investigation?—A. Yes, sir. Q. What did he say?—A. He talked as if it would rather have a tendency to hurt the nation. I remarked that I had talked to big men on my side of politics about it, and they had told me I could not possibly hurt myself by coming here to tell the truth; and he said you don’t want to do anything to hurt yourself; you are wanted to run for the senate. I then said if I did run you would have to vote for me. He said no; I would try to beat you. I told him that would be all right. Q. You say he thought the investigation would be detrimental to the interests of the nation?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you mean he was trying to persuade you from coming on here? —A. No, sir; I don’t think he meant that. He told me it would not do me any especial good to come. He said you are running for the senate and you don’t want to do anything to hurt yourself. Q. Was that your first conversation with him about it? Didn’t you talk with him about it before that?—A. Oh, yes, sir; I talked with him before, in opposition to him. Q. Was that about the time you wrote to the Secretary?—A. No, sir; at that time I was not close to him. Q. How soon after that was it?—A. It was at the next council; the next November. I asked him how he came to sign that bill, or something to that effect. Well, he said he was opposed to it, but that it was the best thing he could do under the circumstances. I said I thought it would have been more in accordance with the constitution to have guarded against that by putting into the bill that it should be to the highest bidder and for not less than $100,000. Well, he said these fellows have been our friends. Afterwards there was a long petition sent to him to get him to veto the bill signed by men there. It was at the time that he had given some of them to understand that he was going to veto the bill. Q. Did you talk to him about the payment of money?—A. I asked him about that. Q. What did he say?—A. He said he did not know anything about it. By Mr. Cameron: Q. He said he did not know anything about it?—A. Yes, sir; I told him I thought it was a very corrupt thing. I asked him how it was that the land below us was renting from 4 to 6 cents an acre, and that above us from 6 to 8. Q. How did you know this?—A. From what I read in the paper I said how can we afford to rent our land for not quite a cent and a half. Q. What was his answer?—A. He said it was the best thing that could be done under the circumstances. He said it was better than letting these other cattlemen have it. He had to do one thing or the other. These were strangers, and these other fellows were well known to the Indians. I said that don’t give us the right to violate our constitution. Q. Is your land as good as the land below and above you which you say rents at from 4 to 8 cents an acre? Is it as valuable for grazing?—A. I think it is better, sir. Q. Where is the land below you situated?—A. I only know from the papers. It is in the Panhandle of Texas. The land above us is in Kansas, in the unsettled counties. By Mr. Gorman: Q. What did he mean by saying he had to do one thing or the other?—A. He just made the remark, or something of the kind. Q. Were there other people there offering to lease the land?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Who were they?—A. Well, I don’t know. Q. Yon didn’t know them?—A. I have been told by responsible parties that others were there trying to lease the land. Q. Well, now, can you tell us anything about any specific offers of money?—A. Only what I have stated. Q. Did you give the Secretary, in your letter, the names of parties who had been offered or who had received money?—A. I did not. Q. What did you say to him?—A. I said that it was the general talk that the whole affair was rotten. Q. You say the people are opposed to it?—A. Yes, sir; a large majority of them are opposed to it. I think I told him that seven-eighths were opposed to it. Q. You told him that seven-eighths were against it?—A. Yes, sir. Q. You think that $50,000 were used to procure the lease?—A. Yes, sir; I was told so. Q. How did you get at that amount?—A. That was the general talk. I heard different fellows say that it was about that much. Q. That was the general rumor?—A. Yes, sir; that was the general talk. By the Chairman: Q. What is the feeling now in reference to this lease among the people? Has it changed at all I —A. They would be unanimously opposed to it if the question of this investigation were taken out. They have an idea that this investigation is going to hurt our sovereignty. Q. Before this investigation was commenced what was the feeling of the people?—A. I never found but awful few folks in favor of it. Q. Do you think the large majority were against it?—A. Yes, sir; I do. If it were left to a vote I don’t believe the lease would get five hundred votes out of the twenty-five thousand. Q. Do these Indians take the ground that we have nothing to do with the matter?—A. I don’t know whether that is so or not. Q. Are you a newspaper man now?—A. Well, no; not directly; I am not directly connected with the press. Q. What papers are published in the Cherokee Nation?—A. The Advocate and the Chieftain. Q. Are there any others?—A. No, sir. Q. Which side do they take in this matter?—A. Well, the editor of the "Advocate"is personally opposed to the lease, as far as that is concerned. Q. Is the editor of the "Chieftain"also opposed to the lease?—A. Well, I don’t know; he is not a citizen of the country. Q. He just came there for the good of the nation, I suppose—A. I don’t know what he came there tor. The cattlemen bought the paper from me. The "Chieftain" is considered the organ of the Cherokee Protective and Detective Association. Q. Where are these papers published?—A. The "Chieftain " is published at Vinita, and the "Advocate," which is the organ of the Government, is published at Tahlequah. Q. What position does the "Advocate" take in regard to the lease question?—A. None at all, so far. It is independent. Mr. Harrison. Neutral, rather. By the Chairman : Q. That, you say, is the organ of the Administration?—A. It is one of the departments of the Government, and is supported by the Government. Q. Is that all you know upon the subject?—A. That is all just now. By Mr. Cameron : Q. If so large a majority of the people are opposed to this lease as you seem to think, how do you account for the fact that the last council, which was elected since the execution of this lease, has instructed its delegates in Washington to oppose any change or alteration in the lease?—A. I don’t know how to account for that; Bushyhead told me about that in our last conversation. Q. It seems that the last council passed an act instructing the delegates as I have said?—A. Yes, sir; and that was on the same principle that this investigation would impair or take away, to a certain extent, their sovereignty. By Mr. Ingalls: Q. Did you ever hear that money was used to induce the council to pass the last bill?—A. No, sir. Q. You have no reason to suppose that this act of the legislature was prompted by improper means?—A. No, sir. Q. You say, that if it were left to a vote of the people not 500 out of 25,000 would support the lease?—A. Yes, sir; I do say so. Q. In what year was this lease made, Mr. Ivey?—A. In May, 1883. Q. Was it a matter of considerable public discussion?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Were the people interested in the matter apparently; discussing it pro and con?—A. Yes, sir; that is why I wrote the letter to the Secretary of the Interior. Q. The feeling was intense?—A. Yes, sir. Q. And the indignation was public?—A. I don’t know that it was; they just said it was a shame to give this land into the possession of these men. Q. You were the editor of a paper then, were you not?—A. I had just sold the "Chieftain." Q. Did you do what you could to contribute to that feeling on the part of the people?—A. I wrote to the Secretary of the Interior upon the subject. Q. Did you talk freely with the people about it?—A. Yes, sir; I wrote the letter after talking with them. Q. How long after the lease was made was the election for members of the present legislature held, Mr. Ivey?—A. They have held two sessions. That was an extra session at which the lease was made. Q. There have been two sessions of the present legislature?—A. Yes, sir. Q. This lease was made in May, and the election for the next legislature was held in August, was it not?—A. Yes, sir. Q. And you say the feeling of public indignation was wide.spread ?—A. Yes, sir; just after the lease was made. Q. And it had not subsided entirely by August?—A. I do not suppose it has subsided yet. Q. The lease was matte in May, and there was a new election in the following August?—A. Yes, sir. Q. And it was the general impression that the lease had been obtained by corrupt means, and was impolitic and unwise?—A. Yes, sir. Q. And the new legislature was elected in August following the time the lease was made?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, it is true, is it not, as Mr. Dawes has stated, that this legislature has instructed its delegation here, through a bill, to oppose any modification of this lease?—A. Yes, sir; that was the instruction. Mr. Harrison. That is, to oppose any action by Congress. By Mr. Ingalls: Q. What is your age, Mr. Ivey?—A. I am twenty-eight years old. Q. Were you born in the Cherokee Nation?—A. No, sir. Q. Where were you born?—A. I was born in Texas. Q. What did you do there?—A. I ran a newspaper at Bonham, and was sergeant-at-arms of the constitutional convention of 1878. Some months prior to the making of the lease I was in Texas also. Q. What were you doing there then?—A. I went to San Antonio on private business. Q. Where is your home in the Indian Territory?—A, At Tahlequah. Q. Are you a man of family?—A. I have a wife and one child. Q. Have you property in Tahlequah?—A. No, sir; I have property in Vinita. Q. What is your present occupation?—A. I am a lawyer. Q. Where do you have your office?—A. At Tahlequah. I have just gotten through compiling the laws of the nation; that is, E. C. Boudinot, Jr., and myself. By Mr. Gorman: Q. You have been asked whether an election for members of the council was held since this lease was made. Did the lease matter come up as a party question afterwards?—A. No, sir. Q. What is the reason of that?—A. They were divided on other questions. Q. What effect did the statement made by Bushyhead in his message, that the Secretary of the Interior was anxious to have the lease question settled—what effect did it have upon the people?—A. I don’t know. Q. Is it not a fact that when it is known to your people that the Department approves a measure, that it is equivalent to settling the matter?—A. Yes, sir; that is pretty much the case. By the Chairman : Q. Was it considered by the people, that after the lease was executed, it was too late to do anything?—A. I had men to tell me so. Q. Did they think there was any way to undo it after it was made —A. The general impression was that they could not undo it. Q. Was Bushyhead reelected after this lease was made?—A. Yes, sir. Q. How came he to be re-elected after this storm of indignation?—A. I don’t know. Q. How many members of the council that passed the bill authorizing the lease were re-elected?—A. I can’t name any that were re-elected. By Mr. Cameron: Q. How many members of the old council were re-elected?—A. I don’t know, sir. By Mr. Harison: Q. How many that voted for the lease were re-elected?—A. I don’t know. By the Chairman : Q. Were many of them re-elected, or were most of them defeated?—A. There were quite a lot of new men sent. Q. Were half of the council new men?—A. I could not tell you, I studied awhile; but a majority of the council are politically opposed to Mr. Bushyhead. Q. But they did not divide in their politics upon this lease?—A. No, sir. . Q. Is Mr. Crittenden in this city?—A. He is here, but he is sick. We have been traveling for five or six days, and have not slept much. By Mr. Walker: Q. On what day and in what month was the election for members of the council and for chief held?—A. On the first Monday in August, I believe. Q. Shortly after the execution of this lease?—A. Yes, sir; shortly afterwards. The lease was signed on the 7th day of July, and the election was held some three weeks after. By Mr. Cameron: Q. The act authorizing the lease to be made was passed in May prior to that, was it not?—A. Yes, sir. By the Chairman : Q. The lease was signed in July and the election was held in August?—A. Yes, sir. Return To Testimony Index.
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Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs
1885

A. E. IVEY.

A. E. IVEY sworn and examined.
By the Chairman:

Question. Where do you live?—Answer. I live at Tahlequah, in the Indian Territory.
Q. How long have you lived there?—A. I have lived there and at Vinita for eight years.
Q. What is your business?—A. I am an editor, and have been engaged in other pursuits.
Q. What portion of the time have you lived at Tahlequah?—A. About half of the time.
Q. Which half?—A. Well, sir, I lived at these places alternately. During the winter I have lived mostly at Tahlequah, and during the summer at Vinita.
Q. Have you been there during the sessions of the legislature, that is, at Tahlequah? That is the capital of the Cherokee Nation, is it not?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you been there during the sessions of the legislature?—A. Yes, sir; I have been present at every regular session since 1877.
Q. Were you there when they held a special session of their council upon the question of leasing their lands?—A. No, sir.
Q. Where were you then?—A. I was in Texas.
Q. How long had you been absent when that session was held?—A. About two months.
Q. Are you a member of the tribe?—A. Yes, sir; I am a Cherokee Indian.

By Mr. Ingalls:

Q. Are you a Cherokee by birth, or marriage?—A. By birth, sir.;
Q. Soon after that session you returned?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is, after the special session?—A. I could not say exactly, but it was soon after. It was late in May when the session was held, and I was back in July.
Q. What knowledge had you of the means taken to obtain that legislation?—A. When I returned home from Texas, where I had been on business; when I returned to Vinita, where I had been postmaster, a great many citizens came to ask me, as a newspaper man, to write something about the matter, and they said it was a rotten transaction. So many came to me to ask if something could not be done that I told them I thought the only thing to do was to write a letter to the Secretary of the Interior and ask him not to approve the lease. That would give us a chance; if the council took a notion to annul the contract they could do it with less hindrance.
Q. Did anybody write to the Secretary of the Interior?—A. Yes, sir; I wrote to him.
Q. What did you tell him?—A. Well, sir, my letter is contained in Senate Executive Document 54, Forty-eighth Congress, first session.
Q. What did you tell him in that letter?—A. I told him it was a rotten transaction, and I thought it would be proved so to be, as I think now.
Q. What was it that led you to make the statement to the Secretary? What had you heard ?—A. Well, men told me they were offered certain considerations to vote for the lease.
Q. Were they members of the council?—A. Yes, sir; they were members of the council.
Q. Can you give their names?—A. Yes, sir; I can give you two names.
Q. Well, go on and give them.—A. John Sanders, and Samuel H. Downing, who is now dead.
Q. Were there any others?—A. I don’t remember whether there were any others or not.
Q. Where does Mr. Sanders live?—A. He lives at Tahlequah.
Q. What did he tell you?—A. He said he was offered $400.
Q. Did he tell you by whom this $400 was offered?—A. No, sir; he did not say. He said he could not tell unless he was put upon oath.

By Mr. Cameron:

Q. Did you ask him who the party was who made this offer?—A. I don’t know that I did; but he said he would not tell who made the offer unless he was put under oath.

By Mr. Ingalls:

Q. He told you he would not state it except under oath?—A. Yes, sir.

By the Chairman :

Q. He said he was offered $400 if he would vote for it?—A. Yes, sir. I was talking to him, and he said be was offered $400, but would have to be put under oath before he would tell by whom.
Q. Did you ask him who offered it?—A. I don’t remember whether I did or not.
Q. Was he opposed to the bill? Did he finally vote against it?—A. Yes, sir; I believe he did; but I would not be certain about that.
Q. Do you know what the vote was on its passage?—A. Well, sir, I talked to the clerk of the senate and the clerk of the house, and my recollection is that it passed the senate by two majority, and the house by one or two.
Q. You understand that it was a close vote in both branches of the legislature?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you hear any other statement of the same character as that you have been testifying about?—A. I heard Dr. Adair relate a conversation he had with Major Drumm. It was relating to leasing, and was a conversation with Major Drumm after the passage of the bill authorizing the lease.
Q. State what that is?—A. He said he went up to congratulate Major Drumm, and he said it costs us like—well, I don’t know what he said, but that it costs pretty high. That is a good benefit, and of course we have to pay for that. Yes, sir, he said, some of them Indians are about as high as Kansas fellows. [Laughter.]
Q. Did he state what the price was, what amount of money it cost?—A. I don’t know.
Q. Did he intimate bow much it cost?—A. Yes, sir; I think so; that was Mr. Adair’s conversation with me. He was a superintendent out there, which is a considerable personage amongst us.
Q. What did Mr. Adair intimate that it cost?—A. I don’t know the exact sum, but he said the damned Indians were pretty high [laughter] —higher than he thought they were.
Q. Did he allude to the high price they were to pay as rental for the land?— A. No, sir; he did not understand the allusion to be to the high rental, but to something else. I asked him particularly about that, being opposed to the lease myself.
Q. What did be say about that?—A. He said that is in regard to the price we paid outside of the $100,000 rental.
Q. Did you get any intimation of how large a sum that was?—A. Yes, sir; they thought it was about $50,000, which was expended outside of the $100,000 rental.
Q. That was the general talk?—A. Yes sir; that was the general talk.
Q. From what source did you get that information?—A. Well, I got it from the full-bloods and half breeds, and from all, in fact.
Q. Did you get it from Indians connected with the legislature?—A. Yes, sir; from those connected with the legislature, and from those out-side—from both—from parties who were merchants in Tahlequah.
Q. They were Indians who were opposed to the lease?—A. Yes, sir; they were personal Indians who were opposed to the lease and those who were not.
Q. Then it was pro and con?—A. Yes, sir; I have heard both sides.
Q. You had some notion of going into the cattle business yourself, did you not?—A. Yes, sir; I was going into the business there.
Q. Were you excluded by this lease, or were you taken in by these lessees?—A. No, sir; I was not taken in.
Q. Did yon try to get in?—A. No, sir.
Q. Had you commenced operations as cattlemen before the lease was executed?—A. Well, yes, sir; but, gentlemen, can I go on and explain the matter in my own way?
The Chairman . Yes, sir.
A. Well, I went there under a decision of the Attorney-General that we had a right to occupy—that is, to graze our cattle on—the public domain. I went and started a range. I was poor like all the rest of our folks; but, as I said, I went and started a range. I took my range in the waters of the Osage and Bluff Creeks, which I believe runs up in that country. Our assessor was there, and he told me there was a vacant spot of ground.
Q. Well, did you stock it?—A. The first year I did not have any cattle. Then I let it to a man named Winthrop, and he agreed the first year to pay me in money, and the next year in cattle.
Q. Were there any other parties besides yourself?—A. Yes, sir; there were several parties. We were going into the cattle business, or try to go into it.
Q. Well, who were the parties?—A. There was Schrimpshire and Foreman, and quite a number of our people there on this land.
Q. Why didn’t you go on?—A. This council "busted" us up. [Laughter.]
Q. Did you have notice to move, or did you infer after this lease was made that you must leave? Did you go of your own accord; did you go without notice?—A. I didn’t go, but I tried to stay; but they would not recognize my claim.
Q. Who would not recognize your claim?—A. These lessees, I guess.
Q. Who was it that failed to recognize it; any particular person?—A. Well, the man I had leased to failed to recognize it. He wrote me letters stating that he could not stay on my range any longer; that the receiver had taken charge of it.
Q. Then he went off and left it?—A. No, sir; he stood in with these fellows after that. [Laughter.]
Q. And staid there you say and joined the others?—A. He must have done that.
Q. Did you make any claim for remuneration?—A. I never did.
Q. Did you, in your communication to the Secretary of the Interior, make any complaint of the fact that you could not occupy the land?—A. I asked him some questions.
Q. What did you say to him? Did you inquire whether you. could occupy it?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he tell you?—A. I forget now just what he did tell me.

By Mr. Ingalls:

Q. Was this man your partner that you spoke of as leaving your range?

By the Chairman :

Mr. Ingalls, I understand that he leased it to this man, who was to pay him in money the first year and then in cattle.
Q. You were going into the business with what you obtained from him for the use of that range, were you not?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. You don’t remember what the Secretary told you?—A. I don’t know whether he answered that letter at all.
Q. Have you given us all you know about the matter?—A. No, sir.
Q. Well, give us all you know. What did the dead man say to you?
The Witness. Do you mean the man Downing?
The Chairman . Yes.
A. He was asked why be was going to vote for the lease, and be said he might as well do it because it was just like picking up so much money in the road; that it was going to pass any way by one vote.
Q. You said he told you that it was like picking up so much money in the road?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you hear him say that?—A. Yes, sir; he said that in the presence of Mr. Rasmus.

By Mr. Ingalls:

Q. What did you say hie name was—Rasmus?—A. Yes, sir; he is a merchant at Tahlequah.

By the Chairman :

Q. How much money did he say it was equivalent to picking up in the street?—A. I think he said it was something like $250 or $300.
Q. Now I want you to state it as definitely as you can.—A. Yes, sir; it was something along there.
Q. Now will you state to us as clearly as you can what he said. What position did this man Downing hold?—A. Well, sir, he was elected a member of the legislature at the time the special session was held.
Q. He was a member of the council then?—A. Yes, sir.

By Mr. Harrison :

Q. Do I understand you to say that he was elected at a general election?—A. No, sir; the election was held to fill a vacancy.

By the Chairman :

Q. Well, go on and tell us what you know about the matter.—A. I told him, I think, it was contrary to our constitution, and also very impolitic. Besides this person, Iots of men came to see me and talk the matter over, men who knew that I was opposed to the lease. I read the constitution to them, and said to them, "How can you vote for this thing? Do you not know that it is contrary to our constitution?" I spoke to Mr. Downing in this way, and also to others. Mr. Downing replied, "Well, you know I am consumptive, and I can’t stay here very long, and I need the money, and it is just like picking it up in the road. It was going to pass anyhow, and I can get that much money.
Q. What was the amount, did you say?—A. It was between $250 and $300
Q. Now, Mr. Ivey, we want you to state what you know as accurately as you can.—A. Well, I asked the parties about this matter who were present when the money was counted.
Q. What do you mean by that?—A. I mean when the money was paid to him. Mr. Rasmus was a merchant at Tahlequah, and Mr. Downing owed Mr. Rasmus a considerable sum tif money. He was a son of the old chief, and he didn’t have much money. He kept a running account with Rasmus. The next day after the bill passed he settled his bill with Rasmus. He counted the money at Te-hee’s house.
Q. Who is Te-hee?—A. He is a full-blood.
Q. Before whom did he count it?—A. Daniel Te-hee.
Mr. Cameron. Tell us all you know about it. If you know anything further we would like to have it.
A. It would take me too long to tell it all.
Mr. Ingalls. Tell all you know.
Mr. Cameron. Go on and tell it in your own way.
The Chairman . That was what we summoned you here for.
The Witness. Well, gentlemen, I will commence and give you a statement. I was in Texas when the May council came on in extra session. I had been at Tahlequah as committee clerk and national editor and also national publisher, and I had gone to Texas. When the council was called together the matter of leases was under consideration among the people, and I had talked to several persons from our district upon the subject. I was then at Vinita. These parties had come to ask me about the constitutionality of the leases. I referred them to the constitution and read it to them; I said you can’t do that, the only way is to lease it to the highest bidder and to specify not less than $100,000. Do it constitutionally and then the Department will back us. After I came back I talked with some of the same men who were speaking about how bad it was and who had voted for it. I would talk around amongst them about one thing and the other, and they began to ask me, "Gus, can’t you help us; can’t you write a:letter to the Secretary of the Interior and ask him not to let this thing go on in this way."I said we can write to the Secretary and ask him not to approve the lease, and in case it is too bad we can then revoke it and he will not approve it. Well, I wrote the letter at the instance of prominent men, who would talk to me about it. After my letter came out a great many came to me and said that that was all right.
Q. What did Mr. Teller say?—A. Mr. Teller said it was not the policy of the Department to approve these leases, but as long as we countenanced these leases the Department would not interfere. In fact, every day I had men come to me and tell me that such a fellow had gotten so much money; that so and so had so much money and had built a nice house.
Mr. Harrison. Can you mention the name of the man who had built a nice house?

By Mr. Ingalls:

Q. So and so is a little indefinite?—A. Yes, sir; I know that is so.
Q. Can you name some of them?
Mr. Harrison. Who is the man who is said to have built a nice house?

By the Chairman :

Q. Who was alluded to as having built a nice house?—A. Major Scales, for one.
Q. Give the name of all you think of.

By Mr. Harrison :

Q. Who was Major Scales?—A. He was the chief justice of the supreme court.
Q. What! A chief justice at the time the leases were made?

By the Chairman :

Q. How could he affect the legislation?—A. Well, sir; that was the talk.
Q. It was only talk then?—A. Yes, sir; it was only talk.

By Mr. Ingalls:

Q. You say it was just talk?—A. Yes, sir; they told me that so and so got so much money for using his influence.

By the Chairman :

Q. Do you speak of members of the senate and house?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you name any members of either the senate or house who were mentioned as having received money?—A. No, sir; not specifically.
Q. You say that these men you have spoken of received money from these parties?—A. I did not say that they received money; that is, I said that Mr. Downing received it, but the other man, he was only offered it.

By Mr. Ingalls:

Q. The other man whom you say received it is dead, is he not?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. He is dead, and cannot deny it.
The Witness. These men would come to me and say so and so had received money.
Q. Who were these men that came to you?—A. Well, they were principally fall bloods.
Q. Were they opposed to the bill?—A. Yes, sir; they were all pretty much opposed to it, but finally when they passed the bill paying it out per capita it became popular.

By the Chairman:

Q. Do you think that provision of the bill carried it?—A. No, sir.
Q. What then?—A. I think the $50,000 carried it. [Laughter.]
Q. What use do you understand was made of the $50,000 that carried the bill through?—A. Well, sir; I think that certain fellows got benefits.
Q. Please be as specific as you can as to who those fellows were.—A. I cannot be specific on that point, because you cannot get the men who received the money to say anything about it, but those who were merely offered it will talk.
Q. Give us some of the names then, please.—A. Mr. French Rowe was offered money.
Q. Was he a member of the council?—A. Yes, sir.

By Mr. Ingalls:

Q. Is it R-o-w-e?—A. Yes, sir.

By the Chairman:

Q. How much did he say he was offered?—A. He said he was offered $20.
Q. Who did he say offered him this $20?—A. It was offered to him by another member of the council. He said that Sanders offered him $20.

By Mr. Ingalls:

Q. Was that the same Mr. Sanders who was offered $250 to vote for it himself?—A. No, sir; it was another man.

By the Chairman:

Q. Were there any others?—A. None that I can name now, sir.

By Mr. Gorman:

Q. Did you talk to Mr. Crittenden about this matter?—A. Mr. Crittenden is here, sir, and can answer for himself.
Q. But I asked you the question?—A. Yes, sir; I have talked to him about it.
Q. What does he say?—A. He said a certain man went to him and told him he could make three or four hundred dollars if he would vote for the bill.
Q. Is that all ? Give us the whole of your conversation.—A. That was about the substance of it. He said that a certain party had told him that he could make three or four hundred dollars if he voted for the bill.
Q. Give us the whole of your conversation and where it occurred.—A. This conversation occurred in a hotel at Tahlequah. I told him they were getting up an investigation, and be said he would like to get to tell a few things before the investigating committee. He was a member of the committee having the matter under consideration. And he also said that John Sanders could tell the committee a good deal.
Q. He told you that certain parties told him that be could make three or four hundred dollars if he supported the bill?—A. Yes, sir; he said he thought the other fellow was going to "whack up"with him.
Q. Who was the fellow?—A. I don’t know.
Q. When was this conversation?—A. It was just after our council closed in extra session.
Q. Have you talked with him since about it?—A. Yes, sir; we talked about it on the road coming here; we came here together.
Q. Did you talk over this matter again with him?—A. Not specially, sir. I just asked him about it, and he repeated the same thing. In fact we have talked about it to-day.
Q. Did he repeat the same thing to-day?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. He did not state who the man was?—A. No, sir.
Q. After this statement did you tell Bushyhead what you had heard?—A. I had a talk with him a day or two before I came here.
Q. Now tell us what was said.—A. I received a letter stating that Mr. Bushyhead wanted to impeach my evidence, and stating that I was not a responsible party. I handed it to him and asked him how it came about, because I had always stood well with him, and he said that it was all a lie. He said "you and I have always been personal friends, although of different politics; we have always gotten along well, for," he said, "I could not and would not do such a thing as that." I said "you could not if you wanted," and he said he knew that.
Q. Did you talk with him about this investigation?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he say?—A. He talked as if it would rather have a tendency to hurt the nation. I remarked that I had talked to big men on my side of politics about it, and they had told me I could not possibly hurt myself by coming here to tell the truth; and he said you don’t want to do anything to hurt yourself; you are wanted to run for the senate. I then said if I did run you would have to vote for me. He said no; I would try to beat you. I told him that would be all right.
Q. You say he thought the investigation would be detrimental to the interests of the nation?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you mean he was trying to persuade you from coming on here? —A. No, sir; I don’t think he meant that. He told me it would not do me any especial good to come. He said you are running for the senate and you don’t want to do anything to hurt yourself.
Q. Was that your first conversation with him about it? Didn’t you talk with him about it before that?—A. Oh, yes, sir; I talked with him before, in opposition to him.
Q. Was that about the time you wrote to the Secretary?—A. No, sir; at that time I was not close to him.
Q. How soon after that was it?—A. It was at the next council; the next November. I asked him how he came to sign that bill, or something to that effect. Well, he said he was opposed to it, but that it was the best thing he could do under the circumstances. I said I thought it would have been more in accordance with the constitution to have guarded against that by putting into the bill that it should be to the highest bidder and for not less than $100,000. Well, he said these fellows have been our friends. Afterwards there was a long petition sent to him to get him to veto the bill signed by men there. It was at the time that he had given some of them to understand that he was going to veto the bill.
Q. Did you talk to him about the payment of money?—A. I asked him about that.
Q. What did he say?—A. He said he did not know anything about it.

By Mr. Cameron:

Q. He said he did not know anything about it?—A. Yes, sir; I told him I thought it was a very corrupt thing. I asked him how it was that the land below us was renting from 4 to 6 cents an acre, and that above us from 6 to 8.
Q. How did you know this?—A. From what I read in the paper I said how can we afford to rent our land for not quite a cent and a half.
Q. What was his answer?—A. He said it was the best thing that could be done under the circumstances. He said it was better than letting these other cattlemen have it. He had to do one thing or the other. These were strangers, and these other fellows were well known to the Indians. I said that don’t give us the right to violate our constitution.
Q. Is your land as good as the land below and above you which you say rents at from 4 to 8 cents an acre? Is it as valuable for grazing?—A. I think it is better, sir.
Q. Where is the land below you situated?—A. I only know from the papers. It is in the Panhandle of Texas. The land above us is in Kansas, in the unsettled counties.

By Mr. Gorman:

Q. What did he mean by saying he had to do one thing or the other?—A. He just made the remark, or something of the kind.
Q. Were there other people there offering to lease the land?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who were they?—A. Well, I don’t know.
Q. Yon didn’t know them?—A. I have been told by responsible parties that others were there trying to lease the land.
Q. Well, now, can you tell us anything about any specific offers of money?—A. Only what I have stated.
Q. Did you give the Secretary, in your letter, the names of parties who had been offered or who had received money?—A. I did not.
Q. What did you say to him?—A. I said that it was the general talk that the whole affair was rotten.
Q. You say the people are opposed to it?—A. Yes, sir; a large majority of them are opposed to it. I think I told him that seven-eighths were opposed to it.
Q. You told him that seven-eighths were against it?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. You think that $50,000 were used to procure the lease?—A. Yes, sir; I was told so.
Q. How did you get at that amount?—A. That was the general talk. I heard different fellows say that it was about that much.
Q. That was the general rumor?—A. Yes, sir; that was the general talk.

By the Chairman:

Q. What is the feeling now in reference to this lease among the people? Has it changed at all I —A. They would be unanimously opposed to it if the question of this investigation were taken out. They have an idea that this investigation is going to hurt our sovereignty.
Q. Before this investigation was commenced what was the feeling of the people?—A. I never found but awful few folks in favor of it.
Q. Do you think the large majority were against it?—A. Yes, sir; I do. If it were left to a vote I don’t believe the lease would get five hundred votes out of the twenty-five thousand.
Q. Do these Indians take the ground that we have nothing to do with the matter?—A. I don’t know whether that is so or not.
Q. Are you a newspaper man now?—A. Well, no; not directly; I am not directly connected with the press.
Q. What papers are published in the Cherokee Nation?—A. The Advocate and the Chieftain.
Q. Are there any others?—A. No, sir.
Q. Which side do they take in this matter?—A. Well, the editor of the "Advocate"is personally opposed to the lease, as far as that is concerned.
Q. Is the editor of the "Chieftain"also opposed to the lease?—A. Well, I don’t know; he is not a citizen of the country.
Q. He just came there for the good of the nation, I suppose—A. I don’t know what he came there tor. The cattlemen bought the paper from me. The "Chieftain" is considered the organ of the Cherokee Protective and Detective Association.
Q. Where are these papers published?—A. The "Chieftain " is published at Vinita, and the "Advocate," which is the organ of the Government, is published at Tahlequah.
Q. What position does the "Advocate" take in regard to the lease question?—A. None at all, so far. It is independent.
Mr. Harrison. Neutral, rather.

By the Chairman :

Q. That, you say, is the organ of the Administration?—A. It is one of the departments of the Government, and is supported by the Government.
Q. Is that all you know upon the subject?—A. That is all just now.

By Mr. Cameron :

Q. If so large a majority of the people are opposed to this lease as you seem to think, how do you account for the fact that the last council, which was elected since the execution of this lease, has instructed its delegates in Washington to oppose any change or alteration in the lease?—A. I don’t know how to account for that; Bushyhead told me about that in our last conversation.
Q. It seems that the last council passed an act instructing the delegates as I have said?—A. Yes, sir; and that was on the same principle that this investigation would impair or take away, to a certain extent, their sovereignty.

By Mr. Ingalls:

Q. Did you ever hear that money was used to induce the council to pass the last bill?—A. No, sir.
Q. You have no reason to suppose that this act of the legislature was prompted by improper means?—A. No, sir.
Q. You say, that if it were left to a vote of the people not 500 out of 25,000 would support the lease?—A. Yes, sir; I do say so.
Q. In what year was this lease made, Mr. Ivey?—A. In May, 1883.
Q. Was it a matter of considerable public discussion?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were the people interested in the matter apparently; discussing it pro and con?—A. Yes, sir; that is why I wrote the letter to the Secretary of the Interior.
Q. The feeling was intense?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the indignation was public?—A. I don’t know that it was; they just said it was a shame to give this land into the possession of these men.
Q. You were the editor of a paper then, were you not?—A. I had just sold the "Chieftain."
Q. Did you do what you could to contribute to that feeling on the part of the people?—A. I wrote to the Secretary of the Interior upon the subject.
Q. Did you talk freely with the people about it?—A. Yes, sir; I wrote the letter after talking with them.
Q. How long after the lease was made was the election for members of the present legislature held, Mr. Ivey?—A. They have held two sessions. That was an extra session at which the lease was made.
Q. There have been two sessions of the present legislature?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. This lease was made in May, and the election for the next legislature was held in August, was it not?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you say the feeling of public indignation was wide.spread ?—A. Yes, sir; just after the lease was made.
Q. And it had not subsided entirely by August?—A. I do not suppose it has subsided yet.
Q. The lease was matte in May, and there was a new election in the following August?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it was the general impression that the lease had been obtained by corrupt means, and was impolitic and unwise?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the new legislature was elected in August following the time the lease was made?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, it is true, is it not, as Mr. Dawes has stated, that this legislature has instructed its delegation here, through a bill, to oppose any modification of this lease?—A. Yes, sir; that was the instruction.
Mr. Harrison. That is, to oppose any action by Congress.

By Mr. Ingalls:

Q. What is your age, Mr. Ivey?—A. I am twenty-eight years old.
Q. Were you born in the Cherokee Nation?—A. No, sir.
Q. Where were you born?—A. I was born in Texas.
Q. What did you do there?—A. I ran a newspaper at Bonham, and was sergeant-at-arms of the constitutional convention of 1878. Some months prior to the making of the lease I was in Texas also.
Q. What were you doing there then?—A. I went to San Antonio on private business.
Q. Where is your home in the Indian Territory?—A, At Tahlequah.
Q. Are you a man of family?—A. I have a wife and one child.
Q. Have you property in Tahlequah?—A. No, sir; I have property in Vinita.
Q. What is your present occupation?—A. I am a lawyer.
Q. Where do you have your office?—A. At Tahlequah. I have just gotten through compiling the laws of the nation; that is, E. C. Boudinot, Jr., and myself.

By Mr. Gorman:

Q. You have been asked whether an election for members of the council was held since this lease was made. Did the lease matter come up as a party question afterwards?—A. No, sir.
Q. What is the reason of that?—A. They were divided on other questions.
Q. What effect did the statement made by Bushyhead in his message, that the Secretary of the Interior was anxious to have the lease question settled—what effect did it have upon the people?—A. I don’t know.
Q. Is it not a fact that when it is known to your people that the Department approves a measure, that it is equivalent to settling the matter?—A. Yes, sir; that is pretty much the case.

By the Chairman :

Q. Was it considered by the people, that after the lease was executed, it was too late to do anything?—A. I had men to tell me so.
Q. Did they think there was any way to undo it after it was made
—A. The general impression was that they could not undo it.
Q. Was Bushyhead reelected after this lease was made?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. How came he to be re-elected after this storm of indignation?—A. I don’t know.
Q. How many members of the council that passed the bill authorizing the lease were re-elected?—A. I can’t name any that were re-elected.

By Mr. Cameron:

Q. How many members of the old council were re-elected?—A. I don’t know, sir.

By Mr. Harison:

Q. How many that voted for the lease were re-elected?—A. I don’t know.

By the Chairman :

Q. Were many of them re-elected, or were most of them defeated?—A. There were quite a lot of new men sent.
Q. Were half of the council new men?—A. I could not tell you, I studied awhile; but a majority of the council are politically opposed to Mr. Bushyhead.
Q. But they did not divide in their politics upon this lease?—A. No, sir. .
Q. Is Mr. Crittenden in this city?—A. He is here, but he is sick. We have been traveling for five or six days, and have not slept much.

By Mr. Walker:

Q. On what day and in what month was the election for members of the council and for chief held?—A. On the first Monday in August, I believe.
Q. Shortly after the execution of this lease?—A. Yes, sir; shortly afterwards. The lease was signed on the 7th day of July, and the election was held some three weeks after.

By Mr. Cameron:

Q. The act authorizing the lease to be made was passed in May prior to that, was it not?—A. Yes, sir.

By the Chairman :

Q. The lease was signed in July and the election was held in August?—A. Yes, sir.

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