"We may be getting warmer towards explaining the ex-Taunton Chutes' move c.1500 from Suffolk to Kent. My first wild theory [see first entry on this page] was that the orphaned Cheney lads at Shurland needed fatherly guidance, and their Suffolk cousins deputed a responsible Chute to Shurland. That was speculation, but we now find a plausible link via the Abbey of Malling. Malling is where Bindoff thought Philip's father lived; Philip left money to its poor. In 1537 its Abbey's prioress had a deputy steward whom she spelt Chutts. Make what you can of my attachment. (More detail available via Google, using "Margaret Vernon" with "Cromwell", then open entries for Little Marlow Priory and Malling Abbey for history and names of prioresses and list of Suffolk and Essex properties owned by Malling Abbey.)

Ref. Bindoff's query that Philip's father might have been from Malling, a possible connection occurs in correspondence in 1537 regarding a "Mr. Chutts" between Margaret Vernon, the current prioress of Malling Abbey (a Benedictine nunnery) and her friend Sir Thomas Cromwell.

VCH for Bucks Vol 1 (copied on Internet) describes Margaret Vernon, when at her previous post as prioress of Little Marlow Priory, as "not very pleasant", but "a scheming and worldly woman" who was "on friendly terms with Thomas Cromwell, even while he was in the service of Cardinal Wolsey." VCH quotes her seeking positions for friends.

From Little Marlow she was apppointed to the Abbey of Malling on the resignation of Elizabeth Rede as prioress in 1536. Margaret's principal recommendation being "the fact that she was an old personal friend of Cromwell".

The entry for Malling in British History Online says that the Abbey's possessions at the Dissolution included (inter alia) the manors of West Malling, Ewell, East Malling, Parrack, Leyton and Great Cornard, and the rectories of West and East Malling and Great Cornard.

Leads and queries to follow up:
(i)  Great Cornard is in Suffolk, adjacent to Sudbury. Malling Abbey had had other East Anglian possessions including Wimbish (nr Saffrom Walden) and Sible Hedingham in Essex. There is no clue in the letter which "bailiwick of Rey" is in question, but the only Reydon in England lies just N of Southwold and thus not far from Wrentham.
(ii)  If the preceding Prioriess at Malling was Elizabeth Rede, might she have been connected with the Miss Redd of Kent who married Oliver Chute (bro. of Lyonell senior)?

"Imagine my delight to come back to a round robin discussion of Crispe, Chowte and Sea !!! I also had a ton of wonderful stuff from Francis to pore over and come up with comments etc. I'm going to include some excerpts from a note on the Crispe discussion that I sent to Francis. As I said to Francis I'm going to wade into this debate ... and I'm coming with a proverbial 'monkey wrench' to put in the works.

"The various Bindoff, Pearman, Hasted, BCHR etc records, as well as the references to lawsuits and land dealings, do make a convincing argument that the Chute family, the Crispe family of Quex (Quekes) and the See (aka Sea, Atsea, At-See) family of Herne in Kent are closely linked. Indeed, I believe that Charles Chute did marry the daughter of a John Crispe of Birchington, Isle of Thanet, and that their marriage marked the beginnings of the Chute association with Kent. But which John and how did Charles in Suffolk locate a Birchington bride??

Further at this point I can accept that Henry See's widow was the Elizabeth nee Girling who married 2nd Philip Chute and that Arthur Chute married Henry & Elizabeth See's daughter Elizabeth. But who were the See family? Were they really Says as suggested by the BCHR heraldry?"

"I offer the following for your consideration:

1. As with most pedigrees that reach back as far as the early 1400s the Crispe pedigrees contain some troublesome errors and omissions. For example Berry's Pedigrees for Kent and UK Genealogy online source for the 1619 Visitation of Kent are missing an entire generation between Henry Crispe who married Joan Dyer and John Crispe who married Agnes the heiress of Quekes. Further these pedigrees are missing many other sons and daughters that can be independently verified through wills etc. The missing generation, a John Crispe (ca 1419-1475) of Whitstable who married Joan Sevenoaks ca 1443 need not concern us beyond establishing the time frame. This generation is higher on the 'tree' than we need look for a wife for Charles Chute, but the missing siblings in the tree are the key.

2. It has been suggested that Charles married a daughter of John Crispe and Avicia (variously know as Alicia, Avis, Anys, Alys) Denne. However their two known daughters Margaretta and Avicia both married twice and not to Charles Chute. More to the point is that both girls were not born until ca 1509-1510 and Charles Chute could hardly be fathering Anthony and Philip with either of them ca 1505-06!!

3. It is necessary to go back a generation to these girls' father John Crispe and his sisters Agnes, Margaretta and Alicia who were all born ca 1476-1482 and are thus contemporaries of Charles Chute. They were the children of John Crispe (ca 1450-1503) who married Agnes Quekes of Birchington about 1475. The three girls could thus be considered as logical choices for the wife of Charles Chute. However all three have recorded marriages that do not include Charles. What if John and Agnes had other daughters not recorded on the existing pedigrees? I believe the answer lies in Quex Chapel where we find a brass memorial displaying the raised impressions of figures representing 8 sons and 7 daughters above which is the following inscription:

'...... of John Crispe Esquire and Agnes his wife the which John decessed the ..... day of .... in the yere of or Lord God mvc (1500) and the seyd Agnes decessed the vj day of June ye yere of or Lord God mvcxxxiij (1533) whos soul thu have ... '

I think that this brass commemorates the family of John Crispe and Agnes Quekes and further that one of their four unnamed daughters married Charles Chute.

4. In Quex Chapel there are many other memorials to the Crispe family including the following:

a) 'The wyfe of John ... Alys decessed the xv ... mvcxviij (1518) on who ..'
I believe this memorial is to Avicia (alias Alys, Alicia) Denne who married John Crispe, the son of John Crispe and Agnes Quekes, bef. ca 1505. Her children were all born bef ca 1517 so she died sometime following the birth of her last child.

b) 'Margarett Cryppys late the wyfe of John Cryppys the younger which Margarett decessed ye xij dai of May in the yere of or Lord God mvcxxxij (1532)'
The monument shows the figure of a woman above a chrism-child, perhaps indicating that she died in child birth. I would suggest that this is a second wife for John (the younger ie son of John) after the death of his first wife Alys in 1518. John died in 1534.

5. Now what about Henry See? It seems that our sources point rather directly to Henry See (aka Sea, Atsea, At-See) of Herne in Kent. (ie London Visitation 1633, Anthony Chute's letter) According to the 1619 Visitation of Kent an Elianor At-See, daughter of Robert At-See of Herne (ie a sister of Henry?) married a Thomas Hawkins of Nashe and Maria (Mary) daughter of Hen. Atsea of Herne married Edward Craford of Mongham. We know from other records that Mary was the sister of Elizabeth See (and of Millicent See) who married Arthur Chute so that Arthur and Edward were brothers-in-law. Arthur and Edward were also second cousins via their Crispe family connections. The General Armory states that the Sea alias Atsea family were of Herne and were armorial. Their Arms, however, were not the Arms of Say as claimed on the BCHR (which also incorrectly ascribed this Say marriage to Arthur's father Anthony) and by John Chute of the Vyne. In fact there were several branches of the family with different but similar Arms, all very different from the Say Arms of 'quartering OR & GU'.

Did John Chute have a record that he felt was valid that indicated a relationship between the See-Sea-Atsea families and the high profile Say family?............It seems to me that it is hard to equate the nautical Seas with the Says.

6. What can be said with some authority is that the Say (not Sea or Atsea), Crispe and Girling families had a very strong presence in Suffolk at this time.

By 1272 the Says were Lords of the Manor of Denham just 5 km east from Eye. They were actually Under-Lords to the de Vere family, Earls of Oxford. In 1327 a Subsidy was paid by a William le Say of nearby Rickinghall. From Corder's 'Dictionary of Suffolk Arms' we learn that the Arms of the Says of Suffolk, Norfolk and of Lord Say, Earl of Essex were as on the BCHR.

The Crispe family bearing the horseshoe armorial was widely represented in Suffolk from at least the beginning of the 1400s as attested to by Suffolk parish records and by wills recorded in F.A. Crisp's 'Collection Relating to the family of Crispe' 1882-1897. AND not just anywhere in Suffolk but centered in Stradbroke and Laxfield as well as a scattering of other nearby villages such as Fressingfield and Cratfield, all grouped together only a few km east of Eye, Gissing and Thorpe Parva. Stadbroke has already been identified as a seat of the Girling family. Is it just a coincidence that we find Crispe, Say, Girling and Kempe families clustered in the same small region in Suffolk where we have our earliest Suffolk Chute records??

7. Cousin Lionel in the US brings up the issue of Crispes with land in Heacham and Sedgeford ca 1538-1544 that seems to upset the Crispe family tree. However, I believe that these Crispes are not Kent Crispes although they carry the same Arms and are undoubtedly cousinly related. They are likely connected to the Stradbroke Crispes. F. A. Crisp's 'Collection' has wills for:

In Norfolk county records I also found reference to the will of a John Crispe sr of Sedgeford in Norfolk 1558. Note that Heacham, Sedgeford and Docking are close together and a few km north of King's Lynn.

I also enclose here a short discourse on the Family Crispe Kent and its ties to the Chutes which I had sent earlier to Francis for comment.

According to B.J. Cigrand�s �History of the Crispe Family� the Crispes originated in northern France and in Flanders where they were involved raising horses and other stock from before the time of the Norman invasion of England. While many families were quite wealthy as evidenced by the properties mentioned in their wills, many were employed as blacksmiths and ferriers. Cigrand suggests that this is the probable explanation for the Crispe Coat of Arms -�OR on a chev SA 5 horseshoes OR�.

Cigrand notes that the Crispe family did not arrive in any numbers from France until the early 1400s when they landed at Rye in Kent, purportedly fleeing religious intolerance at home. He refers to them as �Hugenots�, however, the first substantial Hugenot settlement in Kent was not until 1540 after they were outlawed in France in 1535 in an edict banning all heretics.

What is more certain is that by 1400 members of the Crispe family were well established in Kent, Oxfordshire, Norfolk and Suffolk. Records of taxes collected in Kent in 1334/35 record a Philipe Crippe of Wye, Richard and John Crips of Milton as well as other Cryps. In Oxfordshire William Cripps was seated at Standlake, about 15km west of Oxford from before 1320. The family tradition of religious persecution may well have originated among the Oxfordshire Crispes as they were well placed to observe the rise of �lollardism� with the teachings of Oxford University lecturer John Wycliffe in the mid to late 1300s. The lollards were against the extravagance of the Church, believed the scriptures should be accessible to the average citizen and that there was no basis for �transubstantiation�. There was a lollard uprising in 1414 widely supported by a large number of the knights and courtiers. Their leader Sir John Oldcastle was executed for treason and heresy in 1417.

In Norfolk in 1419 one John Crispe was Rector of Cokethorp All Saints and in later generations there were Crispe families in Heacham, Sedgeford and Docking. However, the greatest concentration of Crispe, Cryspe, Crysp, Crisp, Kyrspe families in the 15th century was in Suffolk, in and surrounding the villages of Stradbroke, Laxfield and Hoxne. Our Chute family has numerous connections to this same area through Cheny, Kempe and Girling marriages. Stradboke was long an important seat of the Girling family. The Chenys were seated between Eye and Stradbroke and the Kempes were at nearby Gissing. The parish and subsidy records of Suffolk contain numerous references to early Crispe families and a number of their wills dated to the mid 1400s have survived and are available along with a mass of other materials in Cigrand�s manuscript and in F. A. Crispe�s �Collections Relating to the Family Crispe - 1882-1897�.

Charle Chute jr�s wife was descended from the Oxfordshire Crispes, originally spelled Cripps, one of whom settled near Whitstable in Kent. John Crispe (ca 1419-1475) was born in Cobcote, Oxfordshire and married Joan Sevenoaks of Sevenoaks about 1443. Their son John was born about 1450 in Canterbury. What contributed most to the Crispe rise to prominence was the marriage about 1475 of this John Crispe (JohnII) to Agnes Quekes (Queakes, Quex) of the Manor of Quekes Park near Birchington on the Isle of Thanet in Kent. The old brick and timber manor House with its extensive parks and rolling fields passed to the Crispe family as Agnes was her father�s sole heir. Within two generations the family had aquired so much land and property that the then proprietor of Quekes Manor was locally styled as the �King of Thanet�. This Sir Henry Crispe served as Sheriff of Kent and as MP for Dover, Winchelsea and Canterbury and apparently served in the 1544 Boulogne campaign along with Philip Chute. He was called upon on occasion to loan funds to the royal coffers and in 1558 was appointed by Queen Mary on the advice of Sir H. Jernegan to mustering of forces in Thanet and to the defense of the coast. Between 1565 and 1573 he was directed by Queen Elizabeth I to attend the Lady Cecilia, daughter of the King of Sweden, on her arrival at Dover, was sent to survey the Queen�s Castle Forts of the Cinque Ports, including Camber Castle then under control of Philip Chute, and was asked to determine the number of men in Thanet available for muster.

The North or Quex Chapel of Birchington All Saints Church contains a number of remarkable brass monuments to the Crispe family. One of these brasses commemorates John Crispe and his wife Agnes Quekes. It reads:

"...... of John Crispe Esquire and Agnes his wife the which John decessed the ..... day of .... in the yere of or Lord God mvc (1500) and the seyd Agnes decessed the vj day of June ye yere of or Lord God mvcxxxiij (1533) whos soul thu have ... "

The inscription on the memorial is placed above raised figures representing fifteen grown children of this couple - 8 sons and 7 daughters. The names of only four are known on existing pedigrees that of John, their heir, and those of three of his sisters; Agnes, Margaretta, and Alicia. They were all born between ca 1476 and 1482 and would have been contemporaries of Charles Chute jr. The husbands of these three sisters are recorded and do not include Charles Chute. Agnes married Henry Gosborne, Margaretta married Henry Thorne and Alicia married twice first to John Symons and secondly to an unkown Darknell. However, a strong case can be made that one of the four unaccounted for daughters married Charles Chute.

The Chute family�s earliest traditional sources, Lionel Chute�s Scroll and the Bethersden Chute Heraldic Roll state respectively that Charles married a daughter of �John Crips of the Isle of Guernsey� and �John Crippes of the Isle of Tennet�. W. E. Chute�s �History of the Chute Family� claims � John Cripps of the Isle of Thanet�, Burke�s Commoner�s records �John Crippes Isle of Thanet� and S, T. Bindoff�s �History of Parliament� indicates that Philip Chute�s father married a daughter of �John Crispe of Birchington, Isle of Thanet.� The many records of the Crispe family also indicate a tangled web of inter family marital links that point to a close association of the Crispe and Chute families.

John Crispe, son of John sr and Agnes Quekes married Avicia (Alicia, Alys) Denne of Kingston and had Margareta, Avicia (Alicia, Alys), Henry, William and John. Of Alicia little is known beyond the fact that she was twice married, however the other siblings present a less shadowy existence.

Margareta married John Crayford (Craford) and their son Edward married Mary Atsea (Sea) daughter of Henry Atsea (Sea) of Herne, Kent. Henry Sea had three daughters, Millicent, Elizabeth and Mary. Elizabeth married Arthur Chute, Charles Chute�s grandson, son of Anthony Chute. Thus Arthur Chute and Elizabeth Sea and Edward Crayford and Mary Sea were brothers-in law and sisters and sisters-in-law. Indeed, if as suggested above, Charles married a daughter of John Crispe and Agnes Quekes then Arthur Chute and Edward Crayford were second cousins as well.

John jr�s son, Sir Henry Crispe (King of Thanet) (ca 1505-1575) married twice, first to Katherine Scot probably of Scot Hall near Brabourne, and secondly to Anna Haselhurst. Henry had seven children, 5 sons and 2 daughters. His daughter Ann married a Philip Browne, a relative of Sir Anthony Browne who was Master of Horse to King Henry VIII and served as one of Philip Chute�s commanders at the siege of Boulogne in 1544. Sir Henry�s son Henry married Ann Culpeper whose parents were Thomas Culpeper of Alyesford and his wife Margaret Colepeper of Bedgebury who was the daughter of Thomas Colepeper the brother of Margaret Colepeper who married Philip Chute of Appledore. Margaret thus was the niece of Philip�s wife. Further the Chute/Crispe marriage proposed above would make Philip Chute and Sir Henry Crispe first cousins.

Sir Henry�s son Nicholas married Frances Cheney younger daughter of Sir Thomas Cheney of Shurland who played such a prominent role in the career of our Philip Chute of Appledore. Nicholas� will bequeathed his �cosen Thomas Keyes� a �morning gown�. Thomas Keyes was Sergeant Porter to Elizabeth I and the husband of Lady Mary Grey who was the sister of Lady Jane Grey. Lady Jane was beheaded in the failed attempt to place her on the throne of England immediately after the death of young Edward VI. There are records showing that Lady Mary Grey had some real estate dealings with Christopher Chute who was Arthur Chute�s brother, and who in the proposed scenario would be Nicholas� second cousin.

John jr�s son William who was Lt. of Dover Castle had at least ten children. It is recorded in the Sussex Visitation of 1634 that William�s son John married secondly Mary the daughter of Edward Gage of Bentley. Mary was the sister of Elizabeth Gage who married Philip Chute�s son George. Thus George Chute and this John Crispe and their wives would be related in a brotherly-in-law and sisterly and sisterly-in-law way. The suggested Chute/Crispe marriage would also make George and this John second cousins and William and Philip Chute would be first cousins. This John Crispe�s first marriage was to Catherine a daughter of Willam Knatchbull yet another family of significance to the Chutes of Kent.

John jr�s son John married Anna Toke, daughter of Robert Toke and Toke is again a family into which the Chutes of Kent would marry. John and Anna had a son Henry who married Mary Culpeper. Mary was the sister of the Ann Culpeper previously discussed who married Henry jr who was this Henry�s first cousin - two first cousins both named Henry married two Culpeper sisters whose mother was the niece of Philip Chute�s wife.

These truly "all in the family" connections offer additional circumstantial support, that is hard to discount, for the Charles Chute/Crispe marriage suggested above. I believe it can be stated with a high degree of probability that Charles Chute jr married an as yet unamed daughter of John Crispe and Agnes Quekes of Quex Park, Birchington, Isle of Thanet, Kent and that this marriage marks the begining of the Chute family�s long association with Kent. Charles jr grows up in Suffolk surrounded by his Cheney relatives at Eye and Kempe relatives at Gissing and getting to know the families in the neighboring villages, such as the Crispe &Girling families in Stradbroke, Laxfield, Hoxne, Fressingfield etc. In particular the Crispes of Stradbroke and Laxfield (resident there since at least the beginning of the 15th century) along with Charles jr�s Cheny relatives could have arranged an introduction to a daughter of John Crispe and Agnes Quekes. They had seven daughters looking for husbands. Francis Chute of Slindon suggests a further link drawing the Chute family towards Kent with the involvement of Charles sr in the management of Cheney affairs at Shurland during the minority of the Thomas Cheney above mentioned who would become Sir Thomas and Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports. Such an involvement would help explain the patronage that Charles sr�s grandson Philip would later receive from Sir Thomas.

Notes on Joane DUSSING vs. Joane ENSING: "I found the following reference on an Ensing site. I wonder if there is simply a spelling difference here and that Ensing and Dussing are the same person - perhaps an imperfect original document?? Too many coincidences:

Thomas ENSING - b. say 1571, Sussex; bur. Feb. 2, 1631/2, Hove, Sussex. His will, dated Dec. 14, 1631, was proved Mar. 27, 1632 in Prerogative Court, Canterbury: Though one or more generations are missing, it is likely that Thomas was a descendant of Thomas ENSING of Winchelsea, Sussex, and of John ENSING, who lived in 1478 at Robertsbridge, Salehurst, Sussex. Thomas ENSING of Winchelsea was mayor there several times between 1519 and 1538, and a Member of Parliament in 1529. He was the father of Joan ENSING, who married first Peter MASTER, and second Philip CHUTE."

RESEARCHER: Steve Chute (2002)

Response: Note from Visitation of Kent, 1530: "1st wiffe Joane daughter of Thomas Ensynge of Wynchelsey co., Sussex, gentylman." Page 5. I'm not sure where WEC obtained the name "Dussing".

RESPONSE: Jackie Chute (2002)

"The Crispe Family (on whom I attach a separate page), the Cheneys and the Sea family all had land in the Isle of Thanet, Northeast Kent.

Hasted, Volume IV, p. 300 contains, in connection with the Isle of Thanet:

"Bartletts alias Thoneton [on the Isle of Thanet in Kent] is a farm about a half mile westaward from Shoart which was likewise held of the manor of Downe Barton in socage, by fealty and rent. It was anciently the patrimony of the Chiches, and then of the Garlands by which name it passed by sale to Robert Sea, to whom and to Henry his son it was assured in fee, which latter on his father's death became wholly seized of it; he died without male issue, and his three daughters Millicent, Elizabeth and Mary became his co-heirs and entitled to it in coparcenary. Jerom Brett and Millicent above mentioned, his wife, by indenture, anno 5 Elizabeth, sold thier third part to William Norwood of Nash, as did Arthur Chute and Elizabeth, above mentioned, his wife, their third part, two years later".

So, in 1564/5, while his uncle Philip was still alive, Arthur/Elizabeth sold equity in a farm named "Bartletts alias Thoneton". This looks rather like "the manor of Thornton_alias_ Bartletts" in your quotation.

I cannot be dogmatic about the lawsuit in which Philip Chowte was apparently defendant, and his nephew Arthur and his wife were among the joint plaintiffs. But I guess that in the 1500s (considering the ways that Tudor monarchs rode roughshod over traditional Common Law as defined by precedent) it was not uncommon procedure, when doubt arose about some more obscure aspect of land tenure, to stage a friendly lawsuit for the sake of obtaining a legal decision.

By the mid-1600s the present practice was more often used - of seeking Counsel's Opinion, which is cheaper than a full Court hearing. (I have a photocopy of such an Opinion given by Chaloner Chute as lawyer on an intricate point of law.) Nowadays, Counsel is usually a senior Queen's Counsel, just one notch lower than a Judge; his opinion is the product of careful study, and therefore expensive; but it cannot be adduced as argument in Court, whereas a Judge's decision can.

Reverting to Crispe. They were also related by marriage to the Cheney family who figure so prominently in our 1480-1566 history. I won't bother you with all the discussions which Steve and I have had in the attempt to put flesh on the bones of our skeleton history, but I felt the need to analyse how the Chutes, fleeing to Suffolk (as Manning says, i.e., not to Sussex) in 1502, might have so soon moved to Kent, where Charles married a Crispe of Birchington, Thanet. "Soon" because Anthony as well as Philip were born in Kent within four years after 1502. My current theory is that since both their father and uncle had died while Francis and Thomas Cheney of Shurland (Thanet) were teenagers, and Thomas is recorded as having been "proud and overbearing" as a boy but by his twenties was a skilled diplomat, therefore I speculate that the Cheney cousins at Eye in Suffolk were worried about the younger men's conduct and lack of parental guidance and decided to ask Charles Chute senior to go and keep a fatherly eye on them. Charles Senior was of course married to a Cheney. He could have had the social clout to be accepted as a tutor by Thomas Cheney in the finer arts of behavior and the advantage of being diplomatic.

The detail of my theory depends on when Charles Senior left Taunton. He might have left long before Edmond, e.g., as early as 1480, the supposed year (per the Bethersden Chute Heraldic Role - BCHR) that he married Miss Cheney. But if Charles Jr. (whom I assume to be son of Charles Sr.) went to Kent with his father and at Shurland met a Crispe lady from a neighboring family which had equal status to the Cheneys in Thanet at that date, we can readily explain (1) the Kentish marriage of Charles Jr. and (2) the familiarity between young Philip Chute and Thomas Cheney. (Thomas took over the Shurland estate when his elder brother died young).

I've a color picture of the huge courtyard-design "catle" into which Thomas Cheney enlarged his family home., and where he assembled he 400 young gents who were trained to repel a French invader; Philip could so easily have been one of them.

But I'll leave it to Steve(to whom I wrote it) to tear my theory to bits before bothering you with all the supporting argument!"

Francis Chute, via e-mail to Jacqueline Chute, Lionel Chute and Steve Chute jointly, March 2006

[Source Reference: Edward Hasted, The History and Topographical Survey of the County of Kent. Volume IV, Page 300, 1788-99 (multiple volumes)]

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