This is part 2 of a collection of 65 messages (a thread) saved from the now defunct FidoNet National Genealogical Echo between Jim Curran and myself, as well as several others discussing Irish/Celtic heritage and history, posted to the echo between July, 1992 and July, 1993.

Last updated November 25, 2005.

Msg#:  6743 *NGC National*
08-21-1992 10:49:55
From:  JIM CURRAN
To:      BONNIE BUNCE
Subj:   IRISHNESS

Oh my God, what your comments have brought back to mind. I am totally of Irish extraction, yet, to this day, I have a sister who bristles when it is brought up. She has consistently denied her Irish background.

Oops, I have just been warned to get off. I will try to continue this on another day. Thank you for your comments.

--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat’l Genealogical Society, Arlington, VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)

Msg#: 6751 *NGC National*
08-21-1992 15:34:10
From:  JIM CURRAN
To:      PAUL DELMORE
Subj:   IRISH WAR

“THE” war is almost certainly one of two. The first started with the Easter Rising of 1916 which was quickly put down (one week) and flared up again in 1918 when the English refused to honor their promises to grant home rule after 100,000 Irish Redmonites gave their lives in WW I on the basis of that promise. That war lasted until late 1921. (Some will say 1922; it depends on what you consider the end of the war.) Peace negotiations were conducted by the Irish, Michael Collins & Arthur Briffith primarily. They went in looking for and expecting an independent Republic of Ireland. While the Irish still had the will to wage war, they no longer had the means. The English OTOH had the means, but not the will. The atrocities of the English, particularly the Black and Tans, an extralegal police/paramilitary force recruited by the English from WW vewterans, so inflamed world opinion that the English that they decided to get by deceit and trickery what they could not win in battle.

Your people may have been forced out by the Black and Tans. Among their atrocities was the burning of the town of Balbriggan and the massacre of Croke Park.

More later.

--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat’l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)

Msg#:  7206 *NGC National*
08-22-1992 23:54:45
From:  JIM CURRAN
To:      PAUL DELMORE
Subj:   “THE” IRISH WAR - PART 2

The peace negotiations ended w/ English Prime minister David Lloyd George delivering an ultimatum to the Irish negotiators. “Accept partition, status as part of the UK, and a loyalty oath to the crown, or we will wage total and horrible warfare.” Griffith, Collins and the other negotiators accepted the terms as the best they could get at the time. Among other things they were also promised a Border Commission that would adjust the borders of the newly created state, Northern Ireland, after peace was made. However, the negotiators acted without consulta­tion with Dublin, particularly Eamon deValera, head of the IRA who had fought and won the war. Back in Ireland, the negotiators found themselves shunned by many of their former compatriots. However, the terms they negotiated were finally approved by Dail Eirann (the shadow parliament of the rebel state).

There then ensued an argument that tore the land apart, created the background for the current Troubles in Northern Ireland, still enflames the emotions of large portions of the Republic and created the climate that probably that sent your family on its way.

The former compatriots now differed on one and only one subject: whether they could trust the English. Eamon deValera split with Michael Collins and took his lads out to continue the battle for an Independent Republic. He and those who followed him believed no Englishman’s promise could be trusted and that the English had no intention of honoring the terms of peace. Collins became the Prime Minister of the Free State of Ireland (what is now the Republic). Thus started the Irish Civil War of 1922-23.

The first part of the Civil War was indeed civil. Neither side was willing to kill their former comrades and even members of their own families. However, the ambush and assassination of Collins soon changed that and that war quickly became nastier and bloodier than the Black and Tan War.

By 1923, the New IRA AKA Legion of the Rearguard (deValera’s followers; as opposed to the Old IRA, those accepting free state status) had run out their string and capitulated. Probably the worst part of it all was that the New IRA’s position was proved the correct one; in 1925 the Border Commission was abolished with the Free State’s acquiesence, and it's only result was the **TAKING** of a small part of Co. Donegal from the Free State.

The hatreds within families and within towns over the Civil War exist today not far below the surface. You speak to Irish men and women on these subjects at your peril. A misstep can place you on one side or the other in the wink of an eye. Many people still alive are affected by it, many had parents killed or maimed. And it can never be satisfactorily resolved while the inital irritant— the parti­tioning of Ireland—still exists to keep the embers of rebellion glowing.

For Irish genealogists, the Civil War was an unmitigated disaster. Early in the century, the Irish government had demanded that each parish and each civil government office turn over their vital records to the central govern­ment for safekeeping and greater access. They were stored at the Four Courts. The New IRA took over the Four Courts as their headquarters. The Free State, at English insistence and with Collins leadership, decided to root out the New IRA, and, using English artillery, bombarded the Four Courts.

The New IRA was driven out, but the fires started by the shelling destroyed the centralized Vital records. Only those places that were too lazy to respond to the central government orders, or who first made copies of their records before surrendering them, still have their own vital records. That’s why researching your Irish roots is so difficult.

Due to the ravages of the Civil War, many Irish emigratd in 1925-26 and is most likely the time period your people did.

--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat’l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)

Msg#:  7207 *NGC National*
08-22-1992 23:55:48
From:   JIM CURRAN
To:       PAUL DELMORE
Subj:    MORE ON “THE” IRISH WAR - PART 3

On the subject of Seumas MacManus: do enjoy it; it’s a fascinating book. But take his rendition of Irish history with a grain of salt. He is not a historian in the usual sense. He treats legend and fact as equally valid as is most clearly seen in his early chapters about prehistoric Ireland. Ireland was a bardic society, depending on oral history. They had a written language, Ogham script, but it was considered inferior to the oral tradition and was apparently used only on stone monuments. Personal opinion: the written language was difficult to use, and like all written language, cannot express the infinite shadings of the spoken word. I would make a comparison to the recent objection I received to my multiple use of the word “died” in a previous message. I suspect that the writer did not get the impact of the segment because he saw it in written form. I am virtually certain his opinion would have almost exactly the opposite if he had heard it rather than read it. The section reduces most people to tears when heard.

Again on McManus: he was also a romantic with his own axe to grind, nationalism, and chose to ignore inconven­ient facts of history. Those he uses are generally accurate; it’s only those he forgets or glosses over that cause a problem. It is more a political tract than a history. Read with that in mind, it is a delightful, enlightening book.

--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat’l Genealogical Society, Arlington, VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)

Msg#:  7208 *NGC National*
08-23-1992 01:09:01
From:   JIM CURRAN
To:       BONNIE BUNCE
Subj:    MORE ON IRISHNESS - PART 2

My sister was always described as the “classic English beauty” in the family. Bullroar!!! She, like me, is as Irish as Paddy’s pig, even after 4-5 generations in this country. She got her attitude from my mother and her mother, who was born at Rockingham Desmense, Co. Roscommon. I have other members of the family who apparently deliberately changed their names (e.g., a John at some point became Jonathon) and used English family names as first and middle names when there is no history of them in the family (e.g., Leigh, Fenton, Gilbert). I have a 1st cousin on my father’s side who was recently (1990) stunned to learn our history. My mother and her mother did such a good job, my father’s family was totally bamboozled.

I find I have mixed emotions about these conceits. I know why they did it and sympathize with them. Life in this country for the Irish from 1860 until relatively recently was anything but easy. They created the first ghettoes in America and fought their way out of them with education, ambition, drive and organization. OTOH, I find it difficult to understand why they would deny such a rich, wonderful, unique heritage.

BTW, your comments about the Irish vis-a-vis Western heritage are not quite accurate. The period in which they saved the remnants was not the Middle Ages or even the time of the Norsemen. It actually occurred several centuries earlier at the height of the Dark Ages. The Irish Sea, the English channel and the mountainous coastal areas of Ireland protected Irish society from both the Romans and later barbarians from the east.

Ireland is one of the few countries converted to Christian­ity in a totally peaceful manner. It actually occurred at least a century earlier than St. Patrick and there were substantial settlements of Christian communi­ties in the south of Ireland (in Co. Cork, for instance) long before Patrick.

Patrick, however, gets the credit for spreading Christianity the length and breadth of Ireland. BTW, he was an Englishman he was taken into slavery by Irish pirates. After release, he returned to England, became a priest and then returned to Ireland to Christianize it. There is a long and delightful story of his encounter with King Aengus that opened the door for his conversion to Christianity. It is much too long to quote here; do look it up. However, I must comment on his “ridding Ireland of snakes.” Ireland never had any snakes! So where does the story come from? It seems that Druidic priests, among other ornaments, used tattoos. A common tattoo was coiled serpents about the arms. So “chasing the snakes out” really means “chasing the druids out.” How did they know about snakes if they had none? Celtic society covered virtually all of western Europe in Roman times, from Spain to Austria, from Northern Italy to England and Ireland and snakes were common in other areas. There was much traffic among the Celts even in those early days.

After becoming Christian, Ireland developed a system of church structure based on abbeys and abbots, while the rest of Europe tended toward bishoprics and bishops. The abbeys resulted in very local control of the church and prevented much of the breakdown in the Church seen on the Mainland when the more centralized control of the bishops were destroyed by the barbarians.

--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat’l Genealogical Society, Arlington, VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)

Msg#:  7209 *NGC National*
08-23-1992 01:10:31
From:   JIM CURRAN
To:       BONNIE BUNCE
Subj:    MORE ON IRISHNESS - PART 3

It was during this period that Ireland became the reposi­tory for Western civilization and became “the land of saints and scholars.” They preserved most of the heritage, and when Western Europe calmed down enough, became the missionaries that reignited the glories of Western civilization. A few odd facts: you’ve probably heard of the two monks that were Charlemagne’s inspiration; guess what? Irish! The Irish created a large percentage of the great monasteries in Europe, such as Bobbio. Guess what St. Bernard was? And guess who they civilized and brought to Christianity (such as they practice it)? The Scots and the English! In fact, the “Scots” were originally the Irish. In Roman times, Ireland was known as both Hibernia and Scotia. The name comes from Queen Scotus, mother of the five Milesian kings who invaded and con­quered Ireland B.C. The name was transferred to Scotland at St. Columcille, among others, was instrumental in establishing a monastery on the island Ierne on the Scottish coast and succeeded in converting the wild Picts of the Highlands. It wasn’t until the 11th century that it became known as the Land of the Scots or Scotland because of this influence.

There is also a long, hilarious shaggy dog story that I'll repeat only the punchline of. Bagpipes originally came from the area that is now Turkey and came to Ireland with Phoenician traders who came to get gold and copper from the Avoca Valley of Ireland and tin from Cornwall. The punchline: “So we gave them the bagpipes and they still haven’t figured out what we did to them!”

From there, the missionary saints went on to create the incredible monastery of Landisferne, which was either in southern Scotland or northern England. England, I believe, but I don’t have the time or the resources to look it up right now. From there they brought Christianity to the English, although the Irish have an awfully hard time believing the English form of it.

Please forgive me for correcting you, but the real story is so much more magnificent and sheds so much light on both the glory and problems of Ireland that I couldn’t resist. In fact the original invasion of Ireland by the Norman English in 1169 was prompted by some of this history. Among other things, in the time of Henry II, the Pope (Leo, I believe and I forget the number), was an Englishman. In fact he was the only English Pope. Henry used a battle between two Irishmen (over a woman, of course), Dermot and Tiernan (who maybe) as an excuse to send Strongbow to conquer Ireland. He secured a Bull from Leo to justify the invasion on the basis of saving Ireland for Christianity! This from people who still wore blue woad for clothing when Ireland had a centuries-long devotion to Christianity, love of education, stable society and devotion to music and poetry.

BTW, the name Bunce is not a common one. In 1938, a Dr. Bunce worked with and attended the death of a 2nd cousin of mine, Dr. George Lally Curran, in North Adams, MA. Any relation?

--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat’l Genealogical Society, Arlington, VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)

Msg#:  9895 *NGC National*
08-27-1992 23:22:00
From:  SUE BUDLONG
To:      JIM CURRAN (Rcvd)
Subj:   REPLY TO MSG# 4571 (IRISH EXILES)

Believe it or not, I haven’t forgotten you, nor has the Postal Service done you in (yet). Package of addresses and other goodies will go in the mail to you tomorrow. Please let me know if it arrives safely ...
Sue Budlong in Falls Church, VA

--- Maximus 2.00
* Origin: CPAFUG BBS (1:109/422)

Msg#:  11398 *NGC National*
08-27-1992 17:03:00
From:   ROBERT GOING
To:       JIM CURRAN
Subj:    REPLY TO MSG#10464 (MORE ON "IRISHNESS" - PART 2)

On (27 Aug 1992) Jim Curran wrote to Bonnie Bunce. . .

JC> Patrick, however, gets the credit for spreading
JC> Christianity the length and breadth of Ireland.
JC> BTW, he was an Englishman he was taken into
JC> slavery by Irish pirates. After release, he returned
JC> to England, became a priest

Inasmuch as we attempt to be precise in this echo, it should be noted that Patrick predated the Anglo-Saxon invasions of Britain and therefor he would have been a Briton, not an Englishman. Otherwise, well done!

--- PPoint 1.30
* Origin: Samuel Spade Agency (1:267/132.7)

Msg#:  10558 *NGC National*
08-27-1992 18:37:00
From:   PAUL DELMORE
To:       JIM CURRAN (Rcvd)
Subj:    YOUR MSGS

Thanks for taking the time to send your messages. Although my knowledge of IRISH history cannot favorably compare w/ yours, I am generally aware of the 20th century struggles. When I was in KILLARNEY, there were old bullet marks in the stone face of our hotel, the GREAT SOUTHERN. Later, I walked the streets of DUBLIN where some of this history occurred. I am sadly aware of the loss of records. It makes a tough job even tougher.

.. My paternal gggfather PATRICK DELMORE married MARY MURPHY in OTTAWA in 1833. In the 1840 US Census, 2 males 10-15 and 2 females 0-5 years of age were in his household. The 2 males most certainly were from a previous marriage. One of them was my ggfather, PATRICK DELMORE, who had been born in IRELAND. I have not found what happened to the other son. PATRICK married ANNA HOGAN, a ‘famine immigrant’ about 1855. The elder PATRICK said on his marriage license in 1833 he was from KILESHANDRA, CAVAN. My paternal gmother, CATHERINE MAHER, b.1870 in CAMBLIN, a townland in ROSCREA parish, N. TIPPERARY, came to BOSTON in 1886, later marrying my gfather JOHN DELMORE in 1893 in PA. My mother’s side of the family arrived from 1850’s to the late 70’s. IRISH married IRISH, and RC married RC. ALL married here.

.. I found more of my gmother’s family in EIRE’s 1901 census on a farm in CAMBLIN owned by JOHN JACKSON. JACKSON owned a significant portion of the 634 acre townland. There were 10 families there in 1901. Through a friend I met on this conf., I found a JAMES MAHER in CAMBLIN in the IRISH phonebook. I wrote. He was not a relative but inquired and learned that the cottage was last occupied by the youngest son & wife. It’s now abandoned and overgrown. He took pictures of the cottage and nearby chapel. Although my gmother was born in CAMBLIN, the later children were born in AGHSMEAR, an adjacent townland. My gmother’s parents, married in ’67, were from BORRISNOE, BOURNEY Par., TIPPERARY. So, I will ask my cousin if it might have been AGHSMEAR or BORRISNOE. How did they wind up back in CAMBLIN? She lives in CASHEL and it’s difficult to get a letter out of her.

.. My wife’s ancestor’s are also almost all IRISH. We came from a small town in PA and both went to a parochial school attended largely by children of IRISH descent. Her mat. gmother had married a JACOB NORTON in 1904. JACOB’s gfather, JOHN NORTON, a Protestant had come from Co. DOWN. JACOB was killed in a rr accident about 1907. When I found his obituary I was surprised to learn that he came from a large family. One of his brothers was named OSCAR. I called the only OSCAR in the hometown phonebook and he was a descendant of one of JACOB's brothers! The living OSCAR had reams of data that his father had kept in a tablet listing vital info on the other ancestors. My wife’s mother never mentioned this side of the family to her or her sisters. Due to the difference in religion, both sides apparently did not associate with one another. Another coincidence—the living OSCAR NORTON had worked with my father and uncle! The old feelings gradually faded. In most cases today, it is difficult to tell what one’s ethnic origin might be. In general, it is like many pieces of a pie. Many do not even know. Religion is still thought to be important, but the fervor of the immi­grants is no longer there. My brother gave me McMANUS, but I have a number of other books, mainly references. You’ve rewakened my curiosity and I will have to browse the IRISH section again at our local library. I saved today’s msgs for re-reading. Thanks again.

PAUL DELMORE,
————,
ROCHESTER NY

... ..CAED MILE FAILTE ..
___ Via Silver Xpress V3.01
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Flower City Central, Rochester, NY 716-889-2016 (1:260/204)

Msg#:  10464 *NGC National*
Date:    08-27-1992 17:06:00
From:   BONNIE BUNCE
To:       JIM CURRAN
Subj:    REPLY TO MSG# 7208 (MORE ON “IRISHNESS” - PART 2)

JC> I find I have mixed emotions about these conceits.
JC> I know why they did it and sympathize with them.
JC> Life in this country for the Irish from 1860 until
JC> relatively recently was anything but easy. They
JC> created the first ghettoes in America and fought their
JC> way out of them with education, ambition, drive and
JC> organization. OTOH, I find it difficult to understand
JC> why they would deny such a rich, wonderful, unique
JC> heritage.

Jim, thanks for such an informative message. It’s interesting that your sister doesn’t like being called Irish, but as you said the Irish had a tough time of it for many years, and so it probably paid to try to blend in with the conquering English rather than fight them. It’s interesting to note that there were two types of Irish, the black Irish, which must have been descended from the Celtic tribes, and the others, which were the blond and red-haired Irish, who were, I guess, actually descendants of Norsemen who settled the town of Dublin.

I read Leon Uris’ book Trinity about the Irish problems and developed a real sympathy for my g.grandmother. I know very little about her, because my parents were divorced when I was young, and I was raised by my father and spent very little time with my mother as I grew up, but once I remember she told me something to the effect that her grandmother, my Irish g.grandmother, said most of the problems in the world are caused by a lack of tolerance for people who are different than you are, probably a lesson she learned in Ireland, wouldn’t you say?

I will try to find the story about the meeting between St. Patrick and that king, sounds just like the kind of blarney I like to read!

---TosScan (q) 1.00
* Origin: TMS/JFF Here! Roots Cellar Too! 303-770-3217 (1:104/330)

Msg:     #8373 - National Genealogical Echo
Date:     08-28-1992 20:02
From:     Bonnie Bunce
To:        Jim Curran
Subj:     MORE ON "IRISHNESS" - Part 3

Oh, Jim, your love of the Irish certainly shines through your messages! Yes, I know Bunce isn’t a common name. It’s supposed to be English although a book I read on the origin of names says Bunce comes from the French word “bon” meaning a good person, and the book went on to say that some of the ancestors of the Bunces came over with William the Conqueror from France, but I don't have any proof back that far, only to 1772, the birth date of my g.g.grandfather, Peter Bunce, who may have been a descendant of Thomas Bunce who was one of the original proprietors of Hartford, Conn. in 1640, but again I have no proof.

My Irish ancestry appears to be solely my g.grandmother Ellen Mary Clark, and her death certificate said her father’s name was John Clark born in Ireland and her mother's name was Mary Brady also born in Ireland. I know my g.grandmother was Catholic because she’s buried in a Catholic cemetery in New York, and my grandparents were married in a Catholic Church in New York City.

Even though my ancestry reads more like Heinz 57, I feel my personality has more Irish characteristics. I read once in a very small article that stuck in my mind, that scien­tists did some studies and found that children’s personali­ties were more like their mother’s and grandmother’s than like their father, even when the children seldom saw their maternal grandmothers, so my Irish g.grandmother is the female line in my family, and she was apparently born in Ireland during the great potato famine in 1849. It’s amazing to me that she survived that terrible event, when so many died. I wonder what happened to her parents and what part of Ireland she came from.

Oh, to answer your question about Dr. Bunce in Adams, Mass. I don’t know of any relatives named Bunce that stayed back East. Most of the male descendants died out in my line, with the exception of my g.grandfather’s family who moved to Kansas in 1857. From an article given to my father by one of his cousins, I read that the Bunces that stayed in Hartford became well-to-do and got into, what else, the insurance business, so it’s possible the Dr. Bunce in your earlier message was another descendant of Thomas Bunce.

~~~ Blue Wave/RA v2.20
--TosScan (q) 1.00
* Origin: TMS/JFF Here! Roots Cellar Too! 303-770-3217 (1:104/330)

Conf: National Genealogical Echo
Msg Num:  7137 of 7969
From:   Jim Curran
To:       Connie Anderson
Date:    08-28-1992 11:36
Subj:    KINDRED IRISH SOUL - PART 2

To his wife, Catherine Maxwell Green McDermott, that tower of strength, who through love and constancy, brought them all through;

To Margaret and Henry Mansfield, torn from their lives at an age when they should have been seeking their ease, and to their son Henry, who having taken up arms for his adopted country, received no training and 29 days after enlistment, was captured and sat out the war in Libby Prison, and to their daughter Mary, who though bewil­dered by the casual cruelty of an uncaring world, sur­vived . . . survived to mother generations of distinction.

To Elizabeth Christie, of whom, her name, to our shame, we know little other than her name (newly added)

OH KEEP MY MEMORY ALIVE, FOR IF YOU FORGET ME, ONLY THEN, WILL I HAVE SURELY DIED.

To those who died . . .  To those who survived . . .

To the Exiles!    May they live forever!

I am the soul of lreland, the poet of her people. I sing of the mountains the valleys, the streams. I live in the air in the forest in the fires of love and beauty. I roam the land from hill to hill. I ramble the wild glens. The sea is my home. I lived at the dawn of Time. I was at my country’s beginnings.

I know the sound of the gun, the clash of steel, the smell of battle smoke. The hunger of the past is in my belly. There are tears in my laughing eyes. I know the tongue of my own. I spoke with kings and queens, wrestled in battle, sang with soldiers and gypsy men. I was at Clontarf and Killala, the Boyne and Limerick. I inspired Pearse and Tone. I made the new Ireland.

Ye have heard my tongue, farmer and clergyman, scholar and tinker . . .

Come sing with me now!

---TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat’l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 7O3-528-2612 (1:109/302)

Msg#:10141 *NGC National*
08-29-1992 10:15:26
From:  JIM CURRAN
To:       SUE BUDLONG (Rcvd)
Subj:   REPLY TO MSG# 9895 (IRISH EXILES)

Do you realize what you and I started with our exchange of messages? There has been a steady stream of mes­sages and I have ended up really getting on my soapbox. This has been fascinating and extremely satisfying. And mostly because you gave such a beautiful comrehensive answer. Thank you.

--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat’l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)

Msg#:10628 *NGC National*
08-30-1992 12:06:55
From:   JIM CURRAN
To:       PAUL DELMORE
Subj:    REPLY TO MSG# 10558 (YOUR MSGS)

A couple of stray thoughts about your messages:  there is a **great** Irish song about the “lanes of Killeshandra.” Let me see if I can track it down for you.

Also, I note you are in Rochester. My dau. lives and teaches there. I’ll try to give you a call the next time we’re up that way.

--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat’l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)

Msg#: 10656 *NGC National*
08-30-1992 21:52:52
From:   JIM CURRAN
To:        BONNIE BUNCE
Subj:     BLACK IRISH - PART 1 OF 2

Bonnie—
Am glad you are enjoying the messages so much. A few notes on the various strains of Irish — although I must admit I am getting away from areas of personal expertise when I start talking about genetics. OTOH this particular topic is one I cannot be disagreed with on. No matter how many sources anyone can come up with, I can find that many more that support my statements. (-: **NOTHING** about Irish history in the eras I am discussing can be proven one way or the other.

The Irish are an incredible mixture of races, but are pri­marily Celtic in nature. There were at least 4 different invasions of Ireland by the Celts. (And puh-lease, unlike the Bostonians who love their basketball team, the word Celt has a hard ‘c’ coming from the Romans’ name Keltoi.)

The most distinctive feature that the Irish got from the Celts was the red hair. The last Celtic invasion was that of the Gaels (whence the name Gaelic for the language) under the five Milesian kings. Milesius (which is really a title meaning something like Champion or Leader rather than a name) was their father and Queen Scotus was their mother. (Still more genealogy!) Offhand, I can only remember three of the kings’ names right now, Ir, Emer & Eremon. If you haunt Irish festivals and stores like I do, there are some neat maps you will see from time to time that trace Irish families from each of the Milesian kings. I’m not too sure too much belief should be put in these lineages.

In their invasion they defeated the Tuatha de Danaan (Tribe of Dana). Dana was a goddess and suggests they were the result of an earlier invasion from the area of Denmark where Dana was a primary deity and for whom Denmark may be named. de Danaans were light of stature and supposedly exceedingly comely. After defeat, tradition has it they descended below ground and became the “Little People” or Leprechauns.

The Gaels came to Ireland from the Galatia area of north­ern Spain. Depending on whose version of “history,” such as it is, you want to believe: First: the Gaels came to Spain by migrating west from the Blue Mountain area of Austria which was the original home of the Celts before they discovered the secrets of iron working and conquered all of Western Europe. Caesar fought the Celts in Gaul—Vercingetorix, etc.

Second: and by far the preferable, or at least more fascin­ating, story has Scotus’ tribe moving **east** into Asia Minor as nomads and continuing on around the Mediter­ranean and across North Africa before crossing into Spain at Gibraltar. Some stories have them picking up the pipes in Turkey and bringing them with them when they ended up in Ireland. However, this is truly fictional; pipes in Ireland long predated the Gaels and were probably brought by the Phoenician traders I mentioned in an earlier message.

The reasons for the Gaels leaving Spain to conquer Ireland brings the story of the Famine that originally started this exchange full circle; the Milesians left Spain because of drought and famine. Gaels were much taller and more strongly built than the inhabitants of Ireland at the time of the invasion. In addition to the de Danaan, there were the Firbolg, probably a still earlier Celtic invader who had been defeated by the de Danaan using a superior form of spear. The Firbolg were very small, dark, heavily muscled people, not unlike the descriptions you find of trolls. After defeat, they retreated to Connacht in the west of Ireland. The Firbolg have been described in some places as remnants of a Neanderthal race.

--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat’l Genealogical Society, Arlington, VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)

Msg#: 10657 *NGC National*
Date: 08-30-1992 21:54:24
From:   JIM CURRAN
To:       BONNIE BUNCE
Subj:    BLACK IRISH - PART 2 OF 2

Complicating the picture were the Fomorians who were sea raiders. I know of no description of them as a people, but I am sure there must be one somewhere. They are particularly shadowy; they have been variously described as sailors from North Africa and Picts from the Hebrides. Actually, the Hebrides and Tory Island were prob. simply their bases for excursions against the Irish.

So those were the basic elements of Celtic Ireland. Now come the overlays. The first, a millennium after the Gaelic invasion, was the Norsemen. The most important point to keep in mind is that no Irishman ever built a city or town of any size; they were all the work of later invaders. The Norse are responsible for such places as Wexford, Dublin and Limerick. For the first couple of centuries of incur­sions, there was little effect of the Norse on the Irish. The Norse didn’t settle; they merely raided and used their towns as jumping off points for incursions up the rivers of Ireland. They brought extremely fair complexions, blond hair and blue eyes to the Irish and an even more rugged build than that received from the Gaels. They were de­feated by Brian Boru at Clontarf in 1013 and became a part of the Irish mainstream.

The next wave were the Normans who were simply Norse­men [or North-men] who stopped off for many genera­tions in northern France before conquering the English mainland and the Anglo-Saxons in 1089. BTW, the Angles and the Saxons had previously invaded and defeated the Celtic lands of what is now England. The Normans invaded supposedly the third from the last Celtic king of England. The Normans invaded in 1169 under Strongbow as I described in an earlier note. They brought with them the same characteristics as the Norsemen.

So who are the Black Irish? They came from the West, primarily the Connemara region of Co. Galway. Some of their characteristics are a result of the Firbolg influence, but there is even a stronger, much more recent influence. During the Middle Ages, English influence waned as the Normans became “more Irish than the Irish” and they were steadily forced back to a small area around Dublin called the Pale. BTW the phrase “beyond the pale” means being one of those “barbarous” Irishmen living outside the English-controlled area. During this period, Irish society gravitated to a great extent about the seaport of Galway City which maintained a thriving sea trade with the Mediterranean area and particularly with Spain. Many of the premier families of Galway derive from traders who settled in Ireland. They brought with them olive complexions, black eyes and black hair.

Still later, at the time of the Spanish Armada, as the Armada attempted to escape, the remnants of the fleet proceeded around the northern tip of Ireland only to meet thunderous storms and seas off the west coast of Ireland. Many a ship-wrecked sailor brought his olive complexion, black eyes and black hair to the hearths of Donegal, Mayo, Sligo & Galway.  [Note: This account of the source of the Black Irish has been discounted in other messages carried over the FidoNet National Genealogical Echo, as it was believed there were no survivors from the wrecks of the ships of the Spanish Armada.]

Thus the genesis of the term “Black Irish.” I am often amazed by the truly incredible interpretations put on that term by the unknowledgeable. It refers **ONLY** to the dark-complected, dark-haired, dark-eyed strain of Irishmen. To this day, you can find in the far west of Ireland, Irish men and women who you would swear were Spanish, Italian or Greek. I have friends from Clifden in Connemara (the next stop west is America) who you would never believe to be Irish if you didn’t know their history.

--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat’l Genealogical Society, Arlington, VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)

Area:   National Genealogical Echo
Msg#:  4329
Date:   09-01-1992 11:35:00
From:  Elsie Savell
To:      Jim Curran
Subj:   Re: BLACK IRISH - PART 2 OF 2

Jim, I am really enjoying these messages. Nowhere in my education has there been a chance to learn Irish ANYTHING. Have you any idea how the Irish/Chilean connection came about? I have read several mysteries about Irishmen hiding money in Chile and landing by dark of night on southern and western coasts of Ireland, etc. An old Humphrey BOGART/Peter LORRE movie last week had the LORRE character portraying an O’HARA from Chile. Anything to that, or is it just fiction?
Best regards, Elsie

* Origin: Bethesda, Maryland (1:109/356.3563)

Area:   National Genealogical Echo
Msg#:  5958
Date:   09-03-1992 16:21
From:  Jim Curran
To:      Elsie Savell
Subj:   IRISH REBELS - PART 1/3

We’re off and running again! I know of no specific Ireland-Chile connection. ***HOWEVER***, if there was ever a rebellion anywhere in the world, and the English were somehow involved (and they usually were given the size and rapacity of the Empire), then you could depend in their being Irishmen on the side fighting the English. They fueled rebellions from Argentina to Canada, and from our own Revolution and Indian Wars to the gold fields of Australia. And they didn’t limit themselves to the English; anywhere there was a good fight (such as with the Spanish colonial empire in S. America, you found the Irish, often with the expectation of developing their war-like skills and returning to free Ireland.

It all basically started in 1603 with the Flight of the Earls.

BTW, I hope no one is holding me to exact dates. All these notes have been done without reference to source documents, and I may have screwed up one or two. In fact, I know in one note I said Strongbow invaded Ireland in 1189; ***WRONG***! It was 1169. I would hope that people will accept the basic truth and accuracy of what I am saying without nailing me to the wall for a misstate­ment of this nature. I have been careful not to include statements about events or situations that I was not totally sure of, at least in general thrust and Irish point of view.

Lord Mountjoy, Elizabeth I’s commander, had defeated Irish forces under the general leadership of Ui Neil (“Ui” indicates “clan of” or “family of”; in one sense it is the plural of “O.”) One of the primary reasons for the rebellion at that time was the English system for granting owner­ship of land and was brought to a head by Henry VIII.

Ireland had many “kings,” but most of them were not kings in the usual sense. The high kings, such as Brian Boru, kings of the provinces and a few others not worth mentioning were exceptions. The other “kings” had royal powers, but basically were elected kings. Their domain was a clan or series of family groupings. All land was held communally by the clan or family and, on the death of a king, the clan selected the new king to serve for a life­time. However, the new king didn’t have to be the son of the old or even a direct relative, altho’ realistically, he usually was. The entire process — indeed all of Celtic life — was controlled by Brehon Law, elements of which go back into the dim, dark corners of prehistory. There are indications some of it could have been contemporaneous with the Code of Hammurabi. The Brehons were the Irish poets. You prob. think of the Irish poets as being people such as Yeats, etc. Not so, the last Irish poet — as the Irish knew them — died in 1738 when the blind harper O’Carolan died. Another side note: never believe the canard that the melody for “Star Spangled Banner” came from an old English drinking song, “Anachreon.” The melody for “Anachreon” came from O’Carolan, so they can’t take credit for that either.

--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat’l Genealogical Society, Arlington, VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)

Area: National Genealogical Echo
Msg#:  5959
Date:   09-03-1992 16:23
From:  Jim Curran
To:      Elsie Savell
Subj:   IRISH REBELS - PART 2/3

There was a vast, elaborate superstructure to Irish society and the Brehon—in fact, any poet!—stood higher than even the Ard Ri, or High King. For instance, only a poet could crown a king. So Brehons stood at the top, with lesser ranks such as ollavs, filii and bards. Laws, literally laws, of hospitality were so stringent, that to be a poet meant you could invite yourself into any household and stay as long as you wished and must be entertained lavishly. On the part of the hosts, this had the practical benefit of bringing honor upon his house ***AND AVOIDING*** the scathing satires composed by a dis­gruntled poet. Such satires were known to destroy a family. Discretion as the better part of valour of course dictated to poets that they not wear out their welcome too quickly in any one place.

Poets were the mainstay of bardic oral tradition and their extensive, many years of training were devoted to mem­orizing all aspects of Gaelic society. They were the law-givers, the lawyers, the judges, the newsmen of the day, the historians and the genealogists, with being enter­tainers coming last in their priorities. IOW, without the poets, Irish society collapsed.

Brehon Law was the basis for land ownership and land could not be conveyed outside the clan without the overall approval of the clan. The king might propose, but he couldn’t dispose of land. English law was very different; English kings and their nobility (which corresponded to most of the Irish kings) personally owned all property in their control and it was theirs to keep or dispose of at their whim. Irish society was totally decentralized, while English was centralized and became more and more so as time progressed.

Henry VIII, determined to solve the “Irish problem” which had gone on already for several centuries, decided to outlaw all Irish nobility and their titles **UNLESS** they swore fealty to him personally. For those who did so, he then regranted the same nobles their same land under the terms of English law. Apparently, the Irish nobility didn’t understand the implications of this. Not only didn’t their clans own the land any more, the nobleman really didn’t either. Only the British sovereign owned the land, and the nobility served at his pleasure as agents rather than owners.

The reality of the situation soon became apparent as Henry and his successors started ratcheting the Irish nobility, culminating in the Ui Neill defeat. After defeat, but not as a direct result, several Earls including The O’Neill, premier Lord of Ulster and English Earl, left the country and this became known as the Flight of the Earls. They were the first exiles. Many more followed them in the following years.

During the ensuing century, disaster upon disaster befell the Irish, including Cromwell, who deserves a story of his own. After resumption of the English monarchy, things quickly went downhill until Catholic James II in the 1680’s. Parliament decided to replace him with the Protestant William of Orange and civil war broke out. Strangely, in this battle, the Irish supported their rightful (or as rightful as he could be) English king, James, and the Church and the Pope supported William!!!! Between the Battle of the Boyne in 1691 and the final defeat of Sarsfield at Limerick, the Irish were finally and completely broken. There then ensued the Penal Code and the Penal Century, which also demand their own story.

--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat’l Genealogical Society, Arlington, VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)

Part 1 of Irishness
Part 3 of Irishness
Part 4 of Irishness (some recommended books & epilogue)
A list of 850+ Irish Surnames from Irish Tourist Board brochure
List of Recommended Genealogical Publications on Irish Ancestry