Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs - 1885
Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs
1885

WILLIAM F. RASMUS.

Washington, D. C., January19, 1885.
WILLIAM F. RASMUS sworn and examined.
By the Chairman :

Question. What is your name?—Answer. William F. Rasmus.
Q. Where do you reside?—A. I reside at Tahlequah, in the Indian Territory.
Q. What is your business?—A. I am engaged in the law business, having recently gone out of the mercantile business.
Q. Are you a Cherokee?—A. I am a Cherokee by adoption.My wife is part Cherokee, and I have resided there as a citizen of the na­tion since 1866. Since that time I have been married according to the laws of the Cherokee Nation.
Q. You are now a practicing lawyer there?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. What were you doing when this lease was procured?—A. I was in the mercantile business.
Q. Are the traders there obliged to have a permit?—A. Yes, sir. I had a license from the nation and had to pay one-fourth of 1 per cent.
Q. Can anybody who pays that per cent open a store?—A. Only citizens. Outside of that permit we have to get a license from the United States Government, being white men.
Q. You get it from the United States Government?—A. Yes, sir; from the Secretary of the Interior.
Q. You were a licensed trader?—A. Yes, sir; I was a licensed trader at the time the lease was obtained. I was licensed laws of the Cherokee Nation and the United States Government at the time this lease was executed.
Q. Did you have any interest in this lease?— A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever had any?—A. No, sir.
Q. Were you interested in any other proposition to lease that land in the Territory?—A. No, sir; not directly.
Q. Have you any knowledge of the manner in which the lease was obtained?—A. Only in part, sir.
Q. Tell us all you know about it.—A. In the first place, the first knowledge I received of the matter was from Mr. Sam. Downing.
Q. Who was he?—A. He was a member of the council, elected to fill a vacancy. We had been in business together and he was trading with me. I suspected that some money had been used and I used to talk with him a great deal, and on one occasion I asked him if he had not been made interested in this matter in some manner, and his answer to this question was that he had received some money. I asked him if it was not about $500, and he said that was about it.
Q. Now please restate what he said. First what you stated, then what be stated.—A. I told him I thought undue means had been used to bring about this lease of land for $100,000, and I had an idea that some members of the council had received some money, and I asked him if he had not got about $500. He said that was about it.
Q. Did he show you any money?—A. Well, sir, he had plenty of money at the time.
Q. Was he a man of means?—A. No, sir; he was not a man of means. He was a man of poor means and of consumptive habit.
Q. What do you mean by plenty of means?—A. He seemed to have plenty of money about him at the time.
Q. Did he make any remarks about the money he had about him?—A. Not that I remember. We just talked about it in a casual way.
Q. Did you pursue the conversation further?—A. No, sir.
Q. At any other time?—A. No, sir.
Q. Is there anything else you have heard?—A. There was one thing that struck me. At the commencement of the council money was scarce; a number of members were complaining of being "short." I had advanced money myself—it was in May, 1883, at the extra session. One thing struck me as being remarkable—the day after the bill passed, fifty and one hundred dollar bills came in to be changed.
Q. Who came in with these bills?—A. Different parties.
Q. Do you remember that any members of the council came in with very large amounts of money or large bills?—A. None that I remember. I was not in the store at all times. I employed a bookkeeper and some seven or eight clerks to help one in my business.
Q. You say money seemed to come in very plentiful. To what extent? How much, do you think?—A. I mean in large bills to be changed. Generally at the close of our council business is very brisk, and most of the money paid out is in large bills, but at this time money was scarce, and most of that in circulation was in small denominations, but after the passage of this bill money seemed to be more plentiful, and ere were quite a number of fifty and one hundred dollar bills in circulation.
Q. What is the opinion of the Cherokees you have talked with in regard to the leasing of this land?—A. Those I have talked with were willing to lease the land, but not to lease for $100,000, because they thought it was worth more, and we would get more for it.
Q. What was the inducement to lease it for $100,000 when more could be gotten?—A. I cannot say.
Q. Do you know of any offer to pay more?—A. Yes, sir; there were parties there, Johnson Thompson and his brother, Gilbert Thompson, and Dr. Adair, who is here present, who gave me to understand that they had formed a company to lease that land, and Mr. Johnson Thompson, with whom I am very well acquainted, said he was willing to give $100,000, and he was willing also to give as much as $125,000.
Q. Did he state that he had made any formal proposition to pay that much?—A. Be did not state it in that way, but he gave me to understand that he had made that offer.
Q. Do you know whether such an offer was ever communicated to the council?—A. I do not know that it was.
Q. Were these parties Cherokees?—A. Yes, sir; they were all citizens of the Cherokee Nation, and they thought it was hard not to have the preference or privilege of getting this land by paying more when they were Cherokees and were amenable to the laws.
Q. How came the nation to do this thing? What led the Cherokee Nation to do this?—A. No more than this, that the bill was paid through. Now, I do not know anything directly upon this point.
Q. Have you any other reason except what you have stated?—A. No, sir; no, sir, none that I can call to my mind. A large number of persons have spoken of it.
Q. Did you think at the time the bill passed that it was the voice of the Cherokee people at that time?—A. I hardly think it would have been at that price; that is, at $100,000. I think they would have let it go for $125,000 or $150,000.
Q. Did you think that the Cherokee people at that time were in favor of leasing to their own citizens rather than to outsiders?—A. I will state that a majority of the people would have preferred this.
Q. Do you think it is the sentiment now; that if they had it do over again they would rather lease to their own citizens?—A. Yes, sir. I think that is the opinion of the majority of the people now— at least a large majority of those I have talked to said it was worth more. I have seen newspaper accounts and have been told that other lands were leasing in other sections of the country at a greater price, and our own cattlemen say it ought to be worth more.
Q. Was it worth as much at the time the lease was made as now?—A. It was worth as much again at the time the lease was made as we got for it.
Q. What do the Cherokees prefer—to lease it among themselves or to outsiders?—A. They prefer to lease it among themselves.
Q. What is the ground upon which they put their preference?—A. They think they would prefer to lease it to their own people, because it is natural with all Indians to be more or less clannish. They think their people would receive more benefit from it. They are very particular about leasing land to white people. The apprehension was that if they leased to outsiders they might lose control of the land, whereas if leased to Cherokee people they would have no cause for any such apprehension.
Q. Do these men employ Indians as herders under the association?—A. Really I do not know.
Q. Are they employed in any way?—A. I expect they have some employed. I have never been out there.
Q. Have you an idea, as a citizen of the nation, whether it would be wise to teach the Indians themselves to herd?—A. Well, I don't know that it would make any difference.
Q. Do you not think it would be better if they were earning money for themselves, rather than to have this money paid to them per capita?—A. I think it would be better for them to do something for it. This per capita business is not very good, because a majority of the Indians run through with the money they receive.
Q. Is there any possible resort from this payment per capita?—A. Well, sir, I do not know that there is. I think this receiving money per capita has produced a good deal of drinking among the people. There is more liquor brought in for sale. They 'know there is more ready cash and they look forward a year or so to this payment.
Q. What proportion of the nation support themselves by their own effort?—A. A large portion do, but then there is a large number who barely make out to live, and money has to be taken out of the treasury to pay them when they are poor and destitute. This has occurred three or four times since I have been there.

By Mr. Cameron:

Q. Mr. Rasmus, you said you understand that a certain number of Cherokee people formed a company or sort of organization and proposed to lease this land. Will you give the names of as many of those citizens who formed that association as you can?—A. I only remember Johnson Thompson, of Tahlequah, and his brother, Gilbert Thompson, and then there is Dr. Adair, who is now here, who was elected by this association president of it. They formed a regular organization, but I was not present at their meetings. I was familiar with Johnson Thompson.
Q. What conversation did you have with Johnson Thompson?—A. He told me on one occasion that he felt very much disappointed that they did not give him more show; they seemed to disregard him.
Q. Were they men of property?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. How much were they worth?—A. Well, Mr. Thompson was worth $50,000 or $75,000. He could raise $50,000 at any time. Gilbert, his brother, I expect, could raise $100,000. He was investing in cattle at the time. He has 7,000 head now. The others are worth considerable. Dr. Adair is worth, I expect, some five, six, or eight thousand dollars.
Q. Do you know whether this company of native Cherokees proposed to stock it themselves or to sublet the land to other parties?—A. I think in a measure they expected to stock it themselves, and to take in perhaps more partners, because I know there were a number of Cherokees who said they were anxious to get such lease as that.
Q. Do you know whether they proposed to sublease it to white men or to anybody who would pay the most?—A. I cannot say. I hardly think they would have let white men have it, because so many Cherokees would gladly have gone in with them.
Q. Do you know that at the time this lease was made there were persons on the land who were paying taxes to the Cherokees for the pasture?—A. I think there were some few parties there.
Q. Did these Cherokees in this association have anything to do with this?—A. I do not know whether they did or not. I think the parties . who were on this land paid an annual tax, and I think when the lease came to be made their privilege to remain upon this land expired.
Q. The privilege expired about the time this new lease came in?—A. Yes, sir; that was my understanding.
Q. Do you know whether any members of the council were interested in this proposed lease by Cherokee citizens?—A. I do not. Mr. John­son Thompson was around a, good deal talking with members; but I do not know whether any of these men were interested or not.
Q. Were any of the men you have named members of the council?—A. No, sir; none of them.

By Mr. Bowen:

Q. About what time was so much money in circulation?—A. That was during the negotiation for the lease—some time in May, 1883—I do not remember the exact date.
Q. It was during the time the council was in session?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was not the $300,000 distributed about that time?—A. I think the $300,000 had been distributed before.
Q. Was there no public money there at the time?—A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know how the $300,000 was distributed?—A. It was paid per capita.
Q. Was all of it paid?—A. All but $22,500.
Q. What became of that?—A. The delegation claimed that it was paid to attorneys here in Washington.
Q. Do you know anything about this from your own personal knowledge?—A. No, sir; I do not. The Auditor told me this warrant for the $22,500 was not turned in settlement. It was not taken to his office until about the first or second week during the session, after the beginning of the council.
Q. But it was dated back?—A. Yes, sir; it was dated back to June.
Q. You speak of the Indians being apprehensive that they might lose possession of their lands by leasing to outsiders; what is your apprehension on the subject?—A. I thought it would be much more secure in the hands of our own people and so did a good many other Indians there.
Q. Do not these leases expire at a certain time?—A. Yes, sir; but it might be difficult to get the parties to vacate at the end of this time.
Q. How could there be any trouble when there are so many Indians and so few of the lessees; how could you imagine any difficulty could arise?—A. If they refused, the only way to get them off would be by the United States authorities.
Q. Well, you do not apprehend any difficulty in getting authority from the United States to remove them, do you?

By the Chairman .

Q. Is it easier to get white men or Indians off of the land?—A. The Indian is easier to get off, I believe. The great trouble or difficulty in regard to this matter is the majority of the people claim that we have not gotten enough pay for the lease of this land.
Q. Is that the feeling now?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. The three hundred thousand dollars was paid into the Treasury by a United States draft, was it not?—A. I cannot say.
Q. I think the money was sent down to the subtreasury at St. Louis?—A. All I know is what Capt. Adair told me.

By Mr. Harrison.

Q. Do you know whether these people who have cattle on this land pay any taxes on the cattle to anybody? I mean these people who have cattle on this strip? Do they pay any taxes on their cattle? I do not mean the rental but such a tax as you and I would pay on our personal property?—A. No, sir.
Q. I think the rental these lessees pay includes taxes, too?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. What do you think a fair rental would have been for this land?—A. I think 4 or 5 cents should have been paid us.
Q. They are paying how much?—A. They are only paying 1⅔ cents.

By Mr. Cameron:

Q. Is there anything in the constitution of the Cherokee Nation which prohibits citizens from forming a joint stock corporation?—A. None at all, sir.
Q. Then there is no legal objection to their forming this joint stock association for the purpose of leasing this land?—A. No, sir.
Q. Now, if these parties do not pay any taxes in Kansas, for instance or the Territory, is that any reason why the Cherokee authorities should charge a higher rental?—A. No, sir; but I think the direct grazing rental is low. I have read that lands elsewhere have leased for, from 3 to 8 cents an acre.
Q. Were the Indians getting anything for this land before the execution of this lease?—A. Not a great deal, sir.
Q. If they were so valuable then, why were they not getting a fair rental for them?—A. Well, sir, there was a time when these lands were idle and unknown to anybody and the people did not really know that they were worth anything and it was not until the lands in Texas and elsewhere were eaten bare so as to be of no value that attention was drawn to this land. When the grass was eaten off of the other lands then attention was drawn to our lands.
Q. Did you understand, at the time the lease was executed, that lands adjacent were leasing at a higher rate?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where?—A. In the Panhandle of Texas.
Q. What were they renting for?—A. They were grazing at 4 and 5 cents all acre.
Q. Do you know this personally?—A. I have no personal knowledge on the subject.
Q. How do you get this information?—A. I simply saw a newspaper account, and I have talked with men on this subject.
Q. You do not know whether that is so or not?—A. No, sir. I have never been there.
Q. Did you see these newspaper accounts before or since the execution of this lease?—A. I saw most of them since that time. The matter has been freely discussed throughout the Indian nation. My attention had not been called to it before that time.
Q. Neither had the attention of the Cherokee Nation?—A. I could not say; I was myself in favor, at the time of holding the land at $200,000, and I believe that we would have gotten it if we had not been in such a hurry.
Q. Did you urge that upon the members of the council?—A. Well yes sir.

By Mr. Harrison:

Q. Mr. Rasmus, Mr. Cameron asked you whether you thought if these people did not pay any taxes in Kansas it would enhance the value of the Territory lands. Suppose they were not legally bound to pay taxes in Kansas, do you think that under the Territorial system, where there is no tax the land would be more valuable than where annual taxes are paid. Do you not think that lands in Kansas or Texas, where taxes have to be paid, are of more value?—A. Yes, sir.

By Mr. Ingalls:

Q. Do these parties not provide in their lease that at the end of the time the improvements shall revert to the lessors?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is not that an element in the compensation?—A. I suppose it is. But the improvements are very temporary.
Q. Are wire fences so temporary?—A. Well, I suppose the fences are more permanent than the buildings.
Q. Do you know the value of the improvements the lessees have put on the land?—A. I could not say.
Q. Well, then, what they do put on would be an element in the compensation, would it not?—A. Yes, sir.

By the Chairman :

Q. Do you understand that whatever they put on, or what they leave on, is what is to revert to the Cherokee Nation?—A. What they leave on.
Q. What does the lease provide?—A. The lease provides, I think, that the improvements they make shall remain upon the land.
Q. Suppose it should be deemed wise the last year of their lease to change the entire system of fences?—A. They might do that.
Q. There is nothing in the lease that would prevent them carrying into effect any such undertaking?—A. No, sir.

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