Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs

Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs 1885
THOMAS E. BERRY (recalled). Washington, D. C., January 26, 1885. THOMAS E. BERRY sworn and examined. By the Chairman : Question. Do you desire to make any further statement?—Answer. Yes, sir; since I gave my testimony there has been some disposition to reflect upon me because, among other things, I claim to have written two letters to the Department. It was also stated here before the committee that one of these letters never was received, that nothing was received from me before March, as I understand it. I wish to state that at the time I wrote the letter which I hold in my hand—that is the first letter to the Department—I was postmaster at Shawneetown myself. Q. Which letter do you refer to?—A. The 18th of June, 1883. I wrote this letter to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and also one to the Indian agent at Sac and Fox Agency, but I failed to get any answer or any investigation from any of them, and since Saturday I have been to the Indian Office, and through the courtesy of Mr. Stevens, chief clerk, have gotten the letter of June 18, 1883. Q. Of what year?—A. June 18, 1883. By Mr. Harrison: Q. You got that from the files of the Indian Office?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Is there any evidence in the Department what time it was received?—A. I suppose there is on the jacket endorsement. It was on the files of the office and under date of June 18. Q. Do you desire to have it made a part of the record?—A. Yes, sir. That letter of June 18 shows that charges were made against me through influence which I know of because I had bought some Creek cattle and I was ordered while I was away to close my store and leave the reservation. Charges were made in the absence of the agent, Mr. Carter. When he returned I was not ordered to close my store and leave the reservation. When I returned and found what had been done, I wrote this letter to the Department, which called the attention of the Department to the fact that employés of the Government were there endeavoring to get a lease from these Indians. Also in Senate Ex. Doc. No. 54, Forty-eighth Congress, first session, there is an official letter dated October 10, from J. V. Carter, United States Indian agent, Sac and Fox Agency, which I will read, or I would like to have it made a part of the record. The Chairman . First read your letter of June 18. (Witness reads letter :) Shawneetown, Ind. T., June 18, 1883. Dear Sir: It seems as some one has reported to your office that I was interested in buying and driving cattle belonging to the Creek Indians, prohibited by Agent Tufts, per notice, viz, the Espieechee party, who are now under control of the military. I wish to state to you the facts in the ease, as this report has been given currency by interested parties whose hope was to have my license revoked. During this spring I and my employ& have bought, all told, about 3:i head of cattle from refugee Creeks, who belonged to the Espieechee party camped on North Fork, and cattle they had brought out with them when they left. home. These were bought before Agent Tuft's notice was given not to buy. They was bought out outside of the Creek country from the men whom this notice of Agent Tufts is supposed to protect. These are all the cattle that have been bought by me from the Creeks, or any one for me or interested with me in any way. The facts have not been known by the party forwarding the report, or he was interested in the effect he hoped it to have, viz, the withholding of my license. I solicit an investigation of the facts and the motive prompting the report, and think that perhaps there are men drawing salaries from the Indian Department in this country who are looking after the cattle business very closely themselves, and who think, were my license withheld, they might have a clear field at Shawneetown, Ind. T. I filed my application for a renewal of license some thirty days ago, and some ten days since forwarded a bond as required by law to do. I hope to hear from the same soon. Yours, THOS. E. BERRY. Hon. H. Price, Commissioner Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. The Witness. The jacket endorsement upon this letter was, "No action taken and no answer made." The Chairman . Now read the letter which you say is in Senate Ex. Doc. No. 54. On what page is that letter? A. It is on page 41, and reads as follows: United States Indian Service, Sac and Fox Agency, Ind. T., October 10, 1883. Sir: In reply to your letter, L. 14139, 1883, dated Washington, October 4, 1883, I have the honor to stale that about the close of June last, or the first of July, E. B. Townsend and C. C. Pickett, representing one company; Moon and Lambert, another company; and Clark and Moore, representing the third company, made application to lease a part of the Sac and Fox Reservation for grazing purposes. I laid the matter before the Sac and Fox Indians in council, informing them that unless they unanimously favored a lease I would not support one, and requesting them to hold a council to themselves to decide the matter, which they did spending about two days in council, and decided not to lease any of their reservation, since which time I have received applications to lease land of the Sac and Fox Indians for grazing purposes, bat I have invariably told them that the Indians would not lease their lauds. I do not know of either of the above parties having conversation with the Indians on the subject out of my presence, and but little talk on the subject in my presence, and but little to me. After the Indians came to the above decision, the above parties have never made any further propositions, as I know of, to me or the Indians. As I do not allow United States citizens or any other citizens to be "negotiating" with my Indians without my knowledge on any business matter, or instructing or advising them without my consent, or in my presence (except superior officers), I will be very thankful to yon to inform me who makes the statement, that I may be enabled to investigate the matter. If there is any "negotiating." or any propositions to negotiate at this time, I know nothing about it, nor do I think the Indians would hear any. I am, very respectfylly, JACOB V. CARTER, United States Indian Agent. Hon. H. Price, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Q. Is there any other statement you desire to make?—A. I wish to state, Mr. Chairman, in regard to insinuations that I was opposing this lease, because I wanted this land for our cattle, I will state frankly that I would be glad to see these Indians lease that portion of their reservation where our cattle are, because the fencing of the land by other parties keeps our cattle from drifting south, and that is the great trouble cattlemen have, to keep their cattle from drifting away. We have plenty of range without that country. I also wish to say that my writing letters to the Department in 1883 was really the cause of my brother's trouble; it was the cause of my being ordered away. Q. Are you a trader now?—A. No, sir; I sold out in June last. Q. Were you obliged to sell out, or did you voluntarily?—A. I sold out voluntarily. Q. You were not removed from the reservation?—A. No, sir. At the time I wrote the letter I have I was an Indian trader, under the order of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and I only hinted at the matter of the Government officers attempting to get the lease, because I knew that it would come out in an investigation. Q. Is there any other statement you desire to make?—A. No, sir; there is no other statement that I think of. Return To Testimony Index.
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Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs
1885

THOMAS E. BERRY

(recalled).

Washington, D. C., January 26, 1885.

THOMAS E. BERRY sworn and examined.
By the Chairman :

Question. Do you desire to make any further statement?—Answer. Yes, sir; since I gave my testimony there has been some disposition to reflect upon me because, among other things, I claim to have written two letters to the Department. It was also stated here before the committee that one of these letters never was received, that nothing was received from me before March, as I understand it. I wish to state that at the time I wrote the letter which I hold in my hand—that is the first letter to the Department—I was postmaster at Shawneetown myself.
Q. Which letter do you refer to?—A. The 18th of June, 1883. I wrote this letter to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and also one to the Indian agent at Sac and Fox Agency, but I failed to get any answer or any investigation from any of them, and since Saturday I have been to the Indian Office, and through the courtesy of Mr. Stevens, chief clerk, have gotten the letter of June 18, 1883.
Q. Of what year?—A. June 18, 1883.

By Mr. Harrison:

Q. You got that from the files of the Indian Office?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is there any evidence in the Department what time it was received?—A. I suppose there is on the jacket endorsement. It was on the files of the office and under date of June 18.
Q. Do you desire to have it made a part of the record?—A. Yes, sir. That letter of June 18 shows that charges were made against me through influence which I know of because I had bought some Creek cattle and I was ordered while I was away to close my store and leave the reservation. Charges were made in the absence of the agent, Mr. Carter. When he returned I was not ordered to close my store and leave the reservation. When I returned and found what had been done, I wrote this letter to the Department, which called the attention of the Department to the fact that employés of the Government were there endeavoring to get a lease from these Indians. Also in Senate Ex. Doc. No. 54, Forty-eighth Congress, first session, there is an official letter dated October 10, from J. V. Carter, United States Indian agent, Sac and Fox Agency, which I will read, or I would like to have it made a part of the record.
The Chairman . First read your letter of June 18.
(Witness reads letter :)

Shawneetown, Ind. T., June 18, 1883.

Dear Sir: It seems as some one has reported to your office that I was interested in buying and driving cattle belonging to the Creek Indians, prohibited by Agent Tufts, per notice, viz, the Espieechee party, who are now under control of the military. I wish to state to you the facts in the ease, as this report has been given currency by interested parties whose hope was to have my license revoked. During this spring I and my employ& have bought, all told, about 3:i head of cattle from refugee Creeks, who belonged to the Espieechee party camped on North Fork, and cattle they had brought out with them when they left. home. These were bought before Agent Tuft's notice was given not to buy. They was bought out outside of the Creek country from the men whom this notice of Agent Tufts is supposed to protect. These are all the cattle that have been bought by me from the Creeks, or any one for me or interested with me in any way.
The facts have not been known by the party forwarding the report, or he was interested in the effect he hoped it to have, viz, the withholding of my license. I solicit an investigation of the facts and the motive prompting the report, and think that perhaps there are men drawing salaries from the Indian Department in this country who are looking after the cattle business very closely themselves, and who think, were my license withheld, they might have a clear field at Shawneetown, Ind. T.
I filed my application for a renewal of license some thirty days ago, and some ten days since forwarded a bond as required by law to do. I hope to hear from the same soon.
Yours,

THOS. E. BERRY.

Hon. H. Price,
Commissioner Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C.

The Witness. The jacket endorsement upon this letter was, "No action taken and no answer made."
The Chairman . Now read the letter which you say is in Senate Ex. Doc. No. 54. On what page is that letter?
A. It is on page 41, and reads as follows:

United States Indian Service,

Sac and Fox Agency, Ind. T., October 10, 1883.

Sir: In reply to your letter, L. 14139, 1883, dated Washington, October 4, 1883, I have the honor to stale that about the close of June last, or the first of July, E. B. Townsend and C. C. Pickett, representing one company; Moon and Lambert, another company; and Clark and Moore, representing the third company, made application to lease a part of the Sac and Fox Reservation for grazing purposes. I laid the matter before the Sac and Fox Indians in council, informing them that unless they unanimously favored a lease I would not support one, and requesting them to hold a council to themselves to decide the matter, which they did spending about two days in council, and decided not to lease any of their reservation, since which time I have received applications to lease land of the Sac and Fox Indians for grazing purposes, bat I have invariably told them that the Indians would not lease their lauds.
I do not know of either of the above parties having conversation with the Indians on the subject out of my presence, and but little talk on the subject in my presence, and but little to me. After the Indians came to the above decision, the above parties have never made any further propositions, as I know of, to me or the Indians.
As I do not allow United States citizens or any other citizens to be "negotiating" with my Indians without my knowledge on any business matter, or instructing or advising them without my consent, or in my presence (except superior officers), I will be very thankful to yon to inform me who makes the statement, that I may be enabled to investigate the matter.
If there is any "negotiating." or any propositions to negotiate at this time, I know nothing about it, nor do I think the Indians would hear any.
I am, very respectfylly,

JACOB V. CARTER,

United States Indian Agent.

Hon. H. Price,
Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C.

Q. Is there any other statement you desire to make?—A. I wish to state, Mr. Chairman, in regard to insinuations that I was opposing this lease, because I wanted this land for our cattle, I will state frankly that I would be glad to see these Indians lease that portion of their reservation where our cattle are, because the fencing of the land by other parties keeps our cattle from drifting south, and that is the great trouble cattlemen have, to keep their cattle from drifting away. We have plenty of range without that country. I also wish to say that my writing letters to the Department in 1883 was really the cause of my brother's trouble; it was the cause of my being ordered away.
Q. Are you a trader now?—A. No, sir; I sold out in June last.
Q. Were you obliged to sell out, or did you voluntarily?—A. I sold out voluntarily.
Q. You were not removed from the reservation?—A. No, sir. At the time I wrote the letter I have I was an Indian trader, under the order of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and I only hinted at the matter of the Government officers attempting to get the lease, because I knew that it would come out in an investigation.
Q. Is there any other statement you desire to make?—A. No, sir; there is no other statement that I think of.

Return To Testimony Index.

This site may be freely linked, but not duplicated without consent.
All rights reserved. Commercial use of material within this site is prohibited.
The copyright (s) on this page must appear on all copied and/or printed material.
© 2024 by C.S.L.S.A. Site Coordinator