Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs

Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs - 1885

Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs 1885
SAMUEL S. SMOOT. SAMUEL S. SMOOT sworn and examined. By the Chairman : margin-top:1.65pt; Question. Where do you reside, Mr. Smoot?—Answer. In Washington City. Q. What is your business?—A. My profession is that of an engineer. Q. Did you ever reside in the Indian Territory?—A. I have made a great many trips there, and resided there several months at a time. Q. Have you any knowledge of the manner in which the lease of the Cherokee Strip was obtained?—A. I was not present at the making of the lease. Q. Were you there before?—A. I was there in 1881—at Tahlequah, in the Cherokee Nation. Q. Were you there again?—A. Yes, sir; I made trips there from 1881 to 1884. Q. How soon after 1883 were you there?—A. I arrived at Tahlequah the 24th of November, 1884, and left the 13th of December, 1884. Q. Did you acquire any knowledge of the matter while you were there on your last visit?—A. I made a great many inquiries among the Cherokees. Q. What information did you receive from the Cherokees?—A. The information I obtained from the Cherokees was that it was a good thing to lease this waste country; that they were getting a revenue from it now, but heretofore had received no pay for it. They had previously, in 1876, 1877, 1878, 1879, 1881, and 1882, appointed a collector from the nation who received 20 per cent. compensation on all the money he collected from the cattlemen in the Cherokee nation. But under that policy the revenue was very small, and when these cattlemen came to Tahlequah for the purpose of obtaining a lease of the land west of 96 several propositions were made. The highest proposition, as I understood, and I made it a special business to inquire, was $60,000, made by Mr. Camp, representing a New York syndicate. The next highest was the $100,000 proposition. The matter was left open for some time, and the Cherokee people considered that it was all they could get, and in consideration of the large amount of money for improvements these parties would expend upon this land, they thought they would be doing well to rent it to them. The improvements to be made by the lessees, were to revert to the Nation at the expiration of the lease, which was for five years. I made inquiries of what these improvements consisted, and I found it was wire fences, with posts of black oak, white oak, and black walnut; fences that would last fifteen to twenty-five years. I surveyed the Osage land in Kansas in 1867, and at that time there were no settlements there. There were no cattle upon the land, except the herds going over from Texas, and going north to Abilene for the purpose of shipment on the Kansas Pacific Railroad. Q. That was in 1867?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Were they shipping cattle as long ago as that?—A. Yes, sir. I have seen 60,000 head come up from Texas through the summer and fall of 1867. They had a trail east and one west of the Arkansas. At the time I do not think the Cherokees derived any revenue from those lands in the Cherokee Strip. I consider that these lands are valuable lands, and I have taken into consideration that they received no revenue before this lease was made, and the revenue they now receive is an adequate price, and these people thought so down there at the time. I talked with Mr. William P. Ross, former chief of the nation, who has been a delegate here, and Mr. Daniel R. Ross, now editor of the Cherokee Advocate, and they said at the time that they thought the Nation should have gotten more money, but inasmuch as the lease had been made, and the parties were good, and they paid promptly into the treasury, they ought to stand by the lease, and when the term expired, which it would do in five years, then they would get more money for the land. Of course, when I was there in 1881, I could have leased all the lands west of the Arkansas River, taking out those small bands that occupied a portion of it, for $25,000 a year. These people considered the country so remote from their own reservation, east of the Arkansas, that they thought it well to have it occupied, but at that time cattle companies had not been formed there. Q. What time did you arrive at Tahlequah in 1884?—A. I arrived there the 24th of November, and left there the morning of the 13th of December. Q. Where did you stop?—A. At Dr. Adair's hotel. He keeps what they call the National Hotel. Q. Who went with you?—A. One of the cattlemen, named Thomas S. Hutton, who roomed with me at the hotel. Q. Where did you meet him?—A. I had never met him until I arrived at Muskogee, and we went together and roomed together at Tahlequah. I had been attorney for the Cherokees in 1871, 1872, and 1873, and I went to see if I could not get a settlement of my claims. Q. What was your business there?—A. I was on my own private business. Q. Did you represent any other interest or have any interest in any part of any one of these leases?—A. No, sir. Q. Had your private business anything to do with that lease?—A. No, sir; my business referred to the appraisement of the Osage lands west of the Arkansas River. Q. Who else did you converse with beside Mr. Hutton as to the leases?—A. The chief, Mr. Bushyhead, Mr. Rogers, the Rosses, Mr. Ivey, and a great many others. I could not undertake to mention them all. Q. What inducements led you to make it your business, if you went on private business, to inquire about the leases?—A. That may require some explanation. I have a general interest in the country, because I was the attorney for the appraisement of these lands, and I have a general interest in everything connected with them. Q. Your general interest in the good will of the nation led you to inquiries?—A. Yes, sir; I am a great friend of the Cherokees, and would do anything for their welfare. ' Q. Did anything transpire there that led you to make special inquiries?—A. No sir. Q. Did you go there with an anxiety to know about the effect of this lease upon the general welfare of the nation?—A. No; not specially, sir. Q. Your anxiety was awakened after you got there?—A. Yes, sir. Q. What communication to you aroused your interest?—A. Well, it was an interest any one would take in coming into a country like that, having been there, as I have been. Q. It was spontaneous, was it not? Did not somebody communicate something to you that led you to become anxious, or did it spring in your own breast?—A. Yes, sir; it sprung in my own breast. Q. You saw a change there?—A. Yes, sir, I saw a change over former years which led me to investigate the matter. I am of an inquiring mind. Q. Tell me what the chief said to you; what his impression was and. all about it; what he told. you in response to your inquiry about this new condition of things.—A. Mr. Bushyhead told me that they had been getting very little revenue from the land west of the 96th meridian and west of the Arkansas River, and he had been in favor for years of leasing the country, and these parties had made the lease in good faith; they had always paid promptly into the treasury, and they bad made great improvements and it would be a source of revenue to the nation. Q. Who told you what the posts were made of?—A. That I ascertained from Mr. Hutton. Q. Did you go on to the premises?—A. No, sir. I have not been on the premises since the lands were leased. Q. You do not know from personal knowledge the character of the posts. I am not doubting the accuracy of your information. I am inquiring the source. Did any one tell you that no other but the $60,000 was offered?—A. Yes, sir; Mr. Bushyhead told me. Q. He gave you this information?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you hear it from any other source?—A. Yes, sir; Mr. Rogers, and one or two others, one of whom was Mr. Bell. Q. Is he a member of the council?—A. No, sir; he was a former delegate to Washington. Q. Did you make any inquiry afterwards?—A. I made a general inquiry all about it. Q. Were you apprehensive that it was not so when it was told you the first time ? How came you to keep up this inquiry?—A. As I have already stated, being naturally of an inquiring mind, while I was there I saw in the Saint Louis Globe-Democrat an account of a resolution offered by the Hon. Senator Vest, of Missouri, to investigate this matter, and it was the general talk there.; Q. You anticipated the investigation?—A. No, sir. When this resolution was published, of course everybody was talking about the lease. and what the result would be, and then, of course, I paid more attention to it than before that time. Q. Did you see Mr. Ivey?—A. Yes, sir. Q. What did he say to you?—A. I had several talks with Mr. Ivey. I believe I first called his attention to the Globe-Democrat. I think I loaned the paper to him, or told him where it was. At any rate we had a conversation. Q. What did he say?—A. He said it would all end in smoke. Q. You saw that letter in regard to the resolution in the paper?—A. Yes, sir; in a paper. He said it would all end in smoke. I said, "Ivey, you will have to go to Washington," and he said, "I reckon not." I said, "You have placed Mr. Vest in this position, and you will have to go." He said : "I am not going." He said he did not know anything about it. He said he had a lease out there, and these parties had not treated him fairly, but he did not propose to go to Washington. I said, "You cannot get out of it." I think when I told him good-bye he was sitting with Dr. Adair, and I said I expected to see him in Washington, and he said, "No; I reckon not." Q. You did not hear him say that he expected this investigation?—A. No, sir. Q. Is there any other fact that you think you can communicate?—A. No, sir; I think not. Q. Anything else in regard to the lease?—A. Only the people seemed to be satisfied. They had this money there and proposed to divide it per capita when it reached the $300,000. Q. Were they going to have a good time afterwards?—A. Yes, sir. There was a proposition, when I was present, in the lower house to authorize the chief of the nation to loan this money on Government bonds, and good security, but it was voted down. They were afraid when the time came for dividing it up they would not have any money, so they voted it down. They have plenty of money. Before the lease the warrants of the nation were at a discount. By Mr. Harrison : Q. How did this money being in the Treasury affect the warrants?—A. Well, sir, if you have an amount of money in bank your credit is good, and if this money is understood to be the property of the nation and is on deposit there, it makes the credit of the nation good. Q. What effect would it have upon the credit of the nation if it was put there to be divided per capita.?—A. Well, sir, they are entitled to their money on the warrants from the nation. Q. What warrants did you refer to when you spoke of their being at a discount? What were they?—A. They were warrants of the Cherokee Nation. Q. How is it the warrants were at a discount?—A. I do not know, sir. Q. Would this money that was deposited in the Treasury have any effect upon the warrants of the nation ? It could not be paid out.—A. Well, sir, they will have $200,000 surplus in their treasury, when this lease expires. Q. But this $300,000 for the lease is to be divided per capita, and there is no pledge that the other money will not be. You said the fact of this money being in the Treasury had raised the price of warrants, and this money was simply to be paid out per capita to the people at the end of a certain time.—A. I was informed that the price of the warrants had been raised; that is all. Q. Mr. Ivey knew when you talked with him that you were rooming with Mr. Hutton, of course?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you interested in any way in these leases?—A. No, sir. Q. You came from that room with Mr. Hutton. and then you had a conversation with Mr. Ivey?—A. No, sir. I will say this: that when I had this interview with Mr. Ivey we were at the time eating and sitting at the table together. We all took our meals together at the table. Return To Testimony Index.
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Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs
1885

SAMUEL S. SMOOT.

SAMUEL S. SMOOT sworn and examined.
By the Chairman :

margin-top:1.65pt; Question. Where do you reside, Mr. Smoot?—Answer. In Washington City.
Q. What is your business?—A. My profession is that of an engineer.
Q. Did you ever reside in the Indian Territory?—A. I have made a great many trips there, and resided there several months at a time.
Q. Have you any knowledge of the manner in which the lease of the Cherokee Strip was obtained?—A. I was not present at the making of the lease.
Q. Were you there before?—A. I was there in 1881—at Tahlequah, in the Cherokee Nation.
Q. Were you there again?—A. Yes, sir; I made trips there from 1881 to 1884.
Q. How soon after 1883 were you there?—A. I arrived at Tahlequah the 24th of November, 1884, and left the 13th of December, 1884.
Q. Did you acquire any knowledge of the matter while you were there on your last visit?—A. I made a great many inquiries among the Cherokees.
Q. What information did you receive from the Cherokees?—A. The information I obtained from the Cherokees was that it was a good thing to lease this waste country; that they were getting a revenue from it now, but heretofore had received no pay for it. They had previously, in 1876, 1877, 1878, 1879, 1881, and 1882, appointed a collector from the nation who received 20 per cent. compensation on all the money he collected from the cattlemen in the Cherokee nation. But under that policy the revenue was very small, and when these cattlemen came to Tahlequah for the purpose of obtaining a lease of the land west of 96 several propositions were made. The highest proposition, as I understood, and I made it a special business to inquire, was $60,000, made by Mr. Camp, representing a New York syndicate. The next highest was the $100,000 proposition. The matter was left open for some time, and the Cherokee people considered that it was all they could get, and in consideration of the large amount of money for improvements these parties would expend upon this land, they thought they would be doing well to rent it to them. The improvements to be made by the lessees, were to revert to the Nation at the expiration of the lease, which was for five years. I made inquiries of what these improvements consisted, and I found it was wire fences, with posts of black oak, white oak, and black walnut; fences that would last fifteen to twenty-five years. I surveyed the Osage land in Kansas in 1867, and at that time there were no settlements there. There were no cattle upon the land, except the herds going over from Texas, and going north to Abilene for the purpose of shipment on the Kansas Pacific Railroad.
Q. That was in 1867?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were they shipping cattle as long ago as that?—A. Yes, sir. I have seen 60,000 head come up from Texas through the summer and fall of 1867. They had a trail east and one west of the Arkansas. At the time I do not think the Cherokees derived any revenue from those lands in the Cherokee Strip. I consider that these lands are valuable lands, and I have taken into consideration that they received no revenue before this lease was made, and the revenue they now receive is an adequate price, and these people thought so down there at the time. I talked with Mr. William P. Ross, former chief of the nation, who has been a delegate here, and Mr. Daniel R. Ross, now editor of the Cherokee Advocate, and they said at the time that they thought the Nation should have gotten more money, but inasmuch as the lease had been made, and the parties were good, and they paid promptly into the treasury, they ought to stand by the lease, and when the term expired, which it would do in five years, then they would get more money for the land. Of course, when I was there in 1881, I could have leased all the lands west of the Arkansas River, taking out those small bands that occupied a portion of it, for $25,000 a year. These people considered the country so remote from their own reservation, east of the Arkansas, that they thought it well to have it occupied, but at that time cattle companies had not been formed there.
Q. What time did you arrive at Tahlequah in 1884?—A. I arrived there the 24th of November, and left there the morning of the 13th of December.
Q. Where did you stop?—A. At Dr. Adair's hotel. He keeps what they call the National Hotel.
Q. Who went with you?—A. One of the cattlemen, named Thomas S. Hutton, who roomed with me at the hotel.
Q. Where did you meet him?—A. I had never met him until I arrived at Muskogee, and we went together and roomed together at Tahlequah. I had been attorney for the Cherokees in 1871, 1872, and 1873, and I went to see if I could not get a settlement of my claims.
Q. What was your business there?—A. I was on my own private business.
Q. Did you represent any other interest or have any interest in any part of any one of these leases?—A. No, sir.
Q. Had your private business anything to do with that lease?—A. No, sir; my business referred to the appraisement of the Osage lands west of the Arkansas River.
Q. Who else did you converse with beside Mr. Hutton as to the leases?—A. The chief, Mr. Bushyhead, Mr. Rogers, the Rosses, Mr. Ivey, and a great many others. I could not undertake to mention them all.
Q. What inducements led you to make it your business, if you went on private business, to inquire about the leases?—A. That may require some explanation. I have a general interest in the country, because I was the attorney for the appraisement of these lands, and I have a general interest in everything connected with them.
Q. Your general interest in the good will of the nation led you to inquiries?—A. Yes, sir; I am a great friend of the Cherokees, and would do anything for their welfare. '
Q. Did anything transpire there that led you to make special inquiries?—A. No sir.
Q. Did you go there with an anxiety to know about the effect of this lease upon the general welfare of the nation?—A. No; not specially, sir.
Q. Your anxiety was awakened after you got there?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. What communication to you aroused your interest?—A. Well, it was an interest any one would take in coming into a country like that, having been there, as I have been.
Q. It was spontaneous, was it not? Did not somebody communicate something to you that led you to become anxious, or did it spring in your own breast?—A. Yes, sir; it sprung in my own breast.
Q. You saw a change there?—A. Yes, sir, I saw a change over former years which led me to investigate the matter. I am of an inquiring mind.
Q. Tell me what the chief said to you; what his impression was and. all about it; what he told. you in response to your inquiry about this new condition of things.—A. Mr. Bushyhead told me that they had been getting very little revenue from the land west of the 96th meridian and west of the Arkansas River, and he had been in favor for years of leasing the country, and these parties had made the lease in good faith; they had always paid promptly into the treasury, and they bad made great improvements and it would be a source of revenue to the nation.
Q. Who told you what the posts were made of?—A. That I ascertained from Mr. Hutton.
Q. Did you go on to the premises?—A. No, sir. I have not been on the premises since the lands were leased.
Q. You do not know from personal knowledge the character of the posts. I am not doubting the accuracy of your information. I am inquiring the source. Did any one tell you that no other but the $60,000 was offered?—A. Yes, sir; Mr. Bushyhead told me.
Q. He gave you this information?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you hear it from any other source?—A. Yes, sir; Mr. Rogers, and one or two others, one of whom was Mr. Bell.
Q. Is he a member of the council?—A. No, sir; he was a former delegate to Washington.
Q. Did you make any inquiry afterwards?—A. I made a general inquiry all about it.
Q. Were you apprehensive that it was not so when it was told you the first time ? How came you to keep up this inquiry?—A. As I have already stated, being naturally of an inquiring mind, while I was there I saw in the Saint Louis Globe-Democrat an account of a resolution offered by the Hon. Senator Vest, of Missouri, to investigate this matter, and it was the general talk there.;
Q. You anticipated the investigation?—A. No, sir. When this resolution was published, of course everybody was talking about the lease. and what the result would be, and then, of course, I paid more attention to it than before that time.
Q. Did you see Mr. Ivey?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he say to you?—A. I had several talks with Mr. Ivey. I believe I first called his attention to the Globe-Democrat. I think I loaned the paper to him, or told him where it was. At any rate we had a conversation.
Q. What did he say?—A. He said it would all end in smoke.
Q. You saw that letter in regard to the resolution in the paper?—A. Yes, sir; in a paper. He said it would all end in smoke. I said, "Ivey, you will have to go to Washington," and he said, "I reckon not." I said, "You have placed Mr. Vest in this position, and you will have to go." He said : "I am not going." He said he did not know anything about it. He said he had a lease out there, and these parties had not treated him fairly, but he did not propose to go to Washington. I said, "You cannot get out of it." I think when I told him good-bye he was sitting with Dr. Adair, and I said I expected to see him in Washington, and he said, "No; I reckon not."
Q. You did not hear him say that he expected this investigation?—A. No, sir.
Q. Is there any other fact that you think you can communicate?—A. No, sir; I think not.
Q. Anything else in regard to the lease?—A. Only the people seemed to be satisfied. They had this money there and proposed to divide it per capita when it reached the $300,000.
Q. Were they going to have a good time afterwards?—A. Yes, sir. There was a proposition, when I was present, in the lower house to authorize the chief of the nation to loan this money on Government bonds, and good security, but it was voted down. They were afraid when the time came for dividing it up they would not have any money, so they voted it down. They have plenty of money. Before the lease the warrants of the nation were at a discount.

By Mr. Harrison :

Q. How did this money being in the Treasury affect the warrants?—A. Well, sir, if you have an amount of money in bank your credit is good, and if this money is understood to be the property of the nation and is on deposit there, it makes the credit of the nation good.
Q. What effect would it have upon the credit of the nation if it was put there to be divided per capita.?—A. Well, sir, they are entitled to their money on the warrants from the nation.
Q. What warrants did you refer to when you spoke of their being at a discount? What were they?—A. They were warrants of the Cherokee Nation.
Q. How is it the warrants were at a discount?—A. I do not know, sir.
Q. Would this money that was deposited in the Treasury have any effect upon the warrants of the nation ? It could not be paid out.—A. Well, sir, they will have $200,000 surplus in their treasury, when this lease expires.
Q. But this $300,000 for the lease is to be divided per capita, and there is no pledge that the other money will not be. You said the fact of this money being in the Treasury had raised the price of warrants, and this money was simply to be paid out per capita to the people at the end of a certain time.—A. I was informed that the price of the warrants had been raised; that is all.
Q. Mr. Ivey knew when you talked with him that you were rooming with Mr. Hutton, of course?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you interested in any way in these leases?—A. No, sir.
Q. You came from that room with Mr. Hutton. and then you had a conversation with Mr. Ivey?—A. No, sir. I will say this: that when I had this interview with Mr. Ivey we were at the time eating and sitting at the table together. We all took our meals together at the table.

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