Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs

Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs 1885
JOHN L. McCOY. Washington, D. C., January 24,1885. JOHN L. McCoy sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Question. What is your full name?—Answer. John L. McCoy. Q. Where do you reside?—A. At Tahlequah, in the Indian Territory. Q. Are you a member of the Cherokee Nation?—A. Yes, sir. Q. By birth?—A. Yes, sir. Q. You hold some official position, do you not?—A. Yes, sir; I do. Q. What position is that?—A. I am a delegate. Q. For any particular matter, or are you a delegate generally?—A. I can show my credentials, gentlemen. The Chairman . Never mind your credentials. The Witness. I am associated here with Mr. Taylor, representing the rights of the old settlers. Q. Are the two delegations working in harmony?—A. Yes, sir; the delegation from the Indian Territory was instructed by the council to, assist us here. Q. You are not acting in behalf of the Cherokee Nation, then—A. No, sir; we are here in the interest of the old settlers. The Chairman . State as you go along, in general terms, what your people are here for. ^The Witness. We are here to prosecute a claim for money due to the North Carolina Cherokees and old settlers. Q. Is it money from the United States Government or from the Cherokee Nation?—A. It is money due by the United States Government. Q. This claim has nothing to do with the Cherokee Nation proper?—A. No, sir. Q. It is an independent claim?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know anything about the lease of the Cherokee Outlet?—A. Only what I have been told, sir. Q. By whom?—A. By various persons in the Indian Territory. Q. Do you mean Cherokee Indians?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Where were you holding this conversation—down in the Territory or here?—A. In the Territory, at Tahlequah, the capital. Q. Were you there when the lease was made?—A. Yes, sir. Q. What did you learn there at that time?—A. If you will allow me, Mr. Chairman, I would rather state it in writing. My memory is short, and I do not like to make a statement except in writing. Q. Have you any writing now?—A. Yes, sir; I wish to read it. By Mr. Ingalls: Q. You have it with you now?—A. Yes, sir. I was aware that I was to come before this committee, and I wished to prepare myself as well as I could. The Chairman . Please read it to the committee. The Witness (reading): 1. I was at the council in May, 1883, held at Tahlequah, Indian Territory, when three separate bids were made to lease the Cherokee lands west of the Arkansas River. The first bid made by a gentleman from Chicago, who proposed to give 2 or 2½. cents per acre. 2. The parties who were in possession of said land with their cattle bid $100,000 per year for the term of five pears. 3. Mr. Bruner and brother, from Kentucky, bid $120,000 per year, of my personal knowledge. I went with Spencer S. Stephens, sr., to the house of Eli Spears, one of the members of said council, to make inquiry about the leasing of said land. Spears said to Stephens that he was offered $3,000, but refused it. That is to say, to vote for the bill. Mr. Ingalls. Just write that in. The Witness. Very well, sir. The Witness (continuing reading): But that he knew of other members of the council who received money for their votes. By the Chairman: Q. Do you want to insert that?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you talk with anybody else about this matter?—A. Yes, sir; I talked with Mr. Rogers, who was a senator in the national council. I talked with him in the morning before he went into the capitol to attend a meeting of the council. I talked to him upon that subject and I said to him that I was opposed to the lease of the land. Q. Do you mean yon were opposed leasing it to anybody?—A. Yes, sir to anybody. Q. Why did you object to it?—A. I thought it would become so densely populated with white people that there would be a chance to lose it altogether. Q. You told him this?—A. Yes, sir. Q. What was his reply?—A. He replied that he was of the same opinion, but when the bill was put on its passage he voted for it. By Mr. Ingalls. Q. What was his full name?—A. Clem Van Rogers. Q. He was a member of the council?—A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Gorman Q. Did not this Mr. Rogers previously report the bill favorably from the committee?—A. Yes, sir. Q. He introduced the bill himself, did he not?—A. I do not know whether he did or not. Q. Had he not, at the time you say you had this conversation, reported that bill to the senate favorably from the committee of which he was a member?—A. I suppose it was before, if he did it at all. Mr. Ingalls. Mr. Chairman, will you request the witness to leave that paper with the clerk ? By the Chairman: Q. You say the conversation which you had with this gentleman was before, or after he made the report?—A. Well, sir, I think it was before. By Mr. Cameron: Q. Why do you think it was before?—A. It was understood that the subject would be taken up on that day; that was my reason for speaking to him. Mr. Ingalls. Mr. McCoy, just tell the clerk what you want to insert, and leave the paper with the clerk. By Mr. Cameron: Q. Had you at any time talked with any of the parties who were seeking to obtain the lease before you had this talk with Mr. Rogers?—A. Yes, sir. Q. With whom?—A. Mr. Bruner. Q. When ?—A. There, at the time the council was held. Q. Was it on the same day, or before that day ?—A. I think it was on the same day, or likely the day previous. I became acquainted with him there. Q. What conversation did you have with him?—A. He was there in waiting to know whether he would get the contract from the Indians or not. Q. What conversation did you have with him in regard to leasing this land ?—A. I do not remember exactly. I remember we spoke of that. By Mr. Ingalls: Q. Will you think it out and write it up for us? Q. What was this gentleman's business there?—A. His business there was to put in his bid for the lease of that land, and he told me that parties were there who had offered $120,000 for the lease, and that the other party had put in their bid for $100,000. The Chairman . As Mr. Ingalls suggests, I wish you-would try and think up that conversation and write it out and leave it with the clerk. The Witness. I will do it, sir. Mr. Ingalls. Please write in what you want to insert before leaving the room. The Chairman . Just write in what you stated when you read that paper—what he was offered $3,000 for. The Witness. He was offered the $3,000 if he would vote for the bill. Return To Testimony Index.
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Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs
1885

JOHN L. McCOY.

Washington, D. C., January 24,1885.

JOHN L. McCoy sworn and examined.
By the Chairman:

Question. What is your full name?—Answer. John L. McCoy.
Q. Where do you reside?—A. At Tahlequah, in the Indian Territory.
Q. Are you a member of the Cherokee Nation?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. By birth?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. You hold some official position, do you not?—A. Yes, sir; I do.
Q. What position is that?—A. I am a delegate.
Q. For any particular matter, or are you a delegate generally?—A. I can show my credentials, gentlemen.
The Chairman . Never mind your credentials.
The Witness. I am associated here with Mr. Taylor, representing the rights of the old settlers.
Q. Are the two delegations working in harmony?—A. Yes, sir; the delegation from the Indian Territory was instructed by the council to, assist us here.
Q. You are not acting in behalf of the Cherokee Nation, then—A. No, sir; we are here in the interest of the old settlers.
The Chairman . State as you go along, in general terms, what your people are here for.
^The Witness. We are here to prosecute a claim for money due to the North Carolina Cherokees and old settlers.
Q. Is it money from the United States Government or from the Cherokee Nation?—A. It is money due by the United States Government.
Q. This claim has nothing to do with the Cherokee Nation proper?—A. No, sir.
Q. It is an independent claim?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know anything about the lease of the Cherokee Outlet?—A. Only what I have been told, sir.
Q. By whom?—A. By various persons in the Indian Territory.
Q. Do you mean Cherokee Indians?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where were you holding this conversation—down in the Territory or here?—A. In the Territory, at Tahlequah, the capital.
Q. Were you there when the lease was made?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you learn there at that time?—A. If you will allow me, Mr. Chairman, I would rather state it in writing. My memory is short, and I do not like to make a statement except in writing.
Q. Have you any writing now?—A. Yes, sir; I wish to read it.

By Mr. Ingalls:

Q. You have it with you now?—A. Yes, sir. I was aware that I was to come before this committee, and I wished to prepare myself as well as I could.
The Chairman . Please read it to the committee.
The Witness (reading):

1. I was at the council in May, 1883, held at Tahlequah, Indian Territory, when three separate bids were made to lease the Cherokee lands west of the Arkansas River. The first bid made by a gentleman from Chicago, who proposed to give 2 or 2½. cents per acre.
2. The parties who were in possession of said land with their cattle bid $100,000 per year for the term of five pears.
3. Mr. Bruner and brother, from Kentucky, bid $120,000 per year, of my personal knowledge.
I went with Spencer S. Stephens, sr., to the house of Eli Spears, one of the members of said council, to make inquiry about the leasing of said land. Spears said to Stephens that he was offered $3,000, but refused it.

That is to say, to vote for the bill.
Mr. Ingalls. Just write that in.
The Witness. Very well, sir.
The Witness (continuing reading):

But that he knew of other members of the council who received money for their votes.

By the Chairman:

Q. Do you want to insert that?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you talk with anybody else about this matter?—A. Yes, sir; I talked with Mr. Rogers, who was a senator in the national council. I talked with him in the morning before he went into the capitol to attend a meeting of the council. I talked to him upon that subject and I said to him that I was opposed to the lease of the land.
Q. Do you mean yon were opposed leasing it to anybody?—A. Yes, sir to anybody.
Q. Why did you object to it?—A. I thought it would become so densely populated with white people that there would be a chance to lose it altogether.
Q. You told him this?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was his reply?—A. He replied that he was of the same opinion, but when the bill was put on its passage he voted for it.

By Mr. Ingalls.

Q. What was his full name?—A. Clem Van Rogers.
Q. He was a member of the council?—A. Yes, sir.

By Mr. Gorman

Q. Did not this Mr. Rogers previously report the bill favorably from the committee?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. He introduced the bill himself, did he not?—A. I do not know whether he did or not.
Q. Had he not, at the time you say you had this conversation, reported that bill to the senate favorably from the committee of which he was a member?—A. I suppose it was before, if he did it at all.
Mr. Ingalls. Mr. Chairman, will you request the witness to leave that paper with the clerk ?

By the Chairman:

Q. You say the conversation which you had with this gentleman was before, or after he made the report?—A. Well, sir, I think it was before.

By Mr. Cameron:

Q. Why do you think it was before?—A. It was understood that the subject would be taken up on that day; that was my reason for speaking to him.
Mr. Ingalls. Mr. McCoy, just tell the clerk what you want to insert, and leave the paper with the clerk.

By Mr. Cameron:

Q. Had you at any time talked with any of the parties who were seeking to obtain the lease before you had this talk with Mr. Rogers?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. With whom?—A. Mr. Bruner.
Q. When ?—A. There, at the time the council was held.
Q. Was it on the same day, or before that day ?—A. I think it was on the same day, or likely the day previous. I became acquainted with him there.
Q. What conversation did you have with him?—A. He was there in waiting to know whether he would get the contract from the Indians or not.
Q. What conversation did you have with him in regard to leasing this land ?—A. I do not remember exactly. I remember we spoke of that.

By Mr. Ingalls:

Q. Will you think it out and write it up for us?
Q. What was this gentleman's business there?—A. His business there was to put in his bid for the lease of that land, and he told me that parties were there who had offered $120,000 for the lease, and that the other party had put in their bid for $100,000.
The Chairman . As Mr. Ingalls suggests, I wish you-would try and think up that conversation and write it out and leave it with the clerk.
The Witness. I will do it, sir.
Mr. Ingalls. Please write in what you want to insert before leaving the room.
The Chairman . Just write in what you stated when you read that paper—what he was offered $3,000 for.
The Witness. He was offered the $3,000 if he would vote for the bill.

Return To Testimony Index.

This site may be freely linked, but not duplicated without consent.
All rights reserved. Commercial use of material within this site is prohibited.
The copyright (s) on this page must appear on all copied and/or printed material.
© 2024 by C.S.L.S.A. Site Coordinator