Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs

Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs - 1885

Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs 1885
HON. GEORGE W. CRITTENDON. Washington, D. C., January 12, 1885. GEORGE W. CRITTENDON sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Question. Mr. Crittendon, where do you reside?—Answer. I reside in the Cherokee Nation, Indian Territory. Q. Are you a member of the Cherokee tribe?—A. Yes, sir. Q. What is your age?—A. Forty. Q. Have you always resided there?—A. Yes, sir; I was born and raised there. Q. Do you hold any office under the Cherokee government?—A. Yes, sir. Q. What is that office?—A. I am a member of their council. Q. Have you been so for some time?—A. Yes, sir; for many years. Q. For how many years?—A. About six years. Q. Were you a member of the council during the talk about leasing of the land?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you in attendance at the council when it was decided to lease the land to these particular men?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you have any particular care of it, or were you a member of any committee?—A. Yes, sir; I was on a committee. Q. What had that committee to do with it; was it referred to them for consideration?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Of how many members did that committee consist?—A. I do not know just how many members of the Senate were members of the committee. but there were three from our House. Q. Three from your House and some of the members of the Senate, besides?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Were they unanimous in their report?—A. No, sir; the committee could not decide the matter. Q. Did anybody in the interest of these lessees appear before the committee?—A. No, sir. Q. Did anybody in their interest have any talk with any members of the committee upon the subject?—A. No, sir; not with the committee . Q. You think not?—A. No, sir. Q. With any members of the council?—A. I do not know, sir. Q. Did anybody talk with you—Any of these stockmen; anybody in the interest of these stockmen?—A. I could not say particularly. Q. Did anybody talk with you?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Who?—A. Mr. Starr did. Q. Who is Mr. Starr?—A. He is a Cherokee. Q. He is a member of the tribe, then?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Did he hold any office under the Cherokee Nation?—He was a Cherokee, you say?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Was he at Tahlequah?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Did he come to see you?—A. No, sir; I just simply met him. Q. What did he say to you?—A. He just said he wanted me to vote for the leases. I think he was just trying to test my vote. He said that he thought he could make a little out of this. Q. He told you he thought he could make a little out of this?—A. Yes, sir. He thought he could make a little off of these parties. I told him I could not do anything for him. Q. You told him you could not do anything for him?—A. Yes, sir. He said if I would talk up the bill he could make some money or make something out of it. I told him that did not suit me. Q. What else?—A. He said he would see me again. Q. Did he see you again?—A. No, sir; be did not come back. Q. Did nobody else talk to you on that business?—A. No, sir. Q. Did any one connected with the leases at all?—A. No, sir. Q. Did you know of anybody being offered anything when you were there?—A. Well, sir, it was the general talk. Q. What was the general talk?—A. That they used money. Q. Who used money?—A. These men who were after the leases. Q. In what. way did they use money?—A. To influence members. Q. You do not remember who said this particularly?—A. No, sir. That was just the general talk among us—that money was used to influence the council. Q. Was that talk directed to any particular member of the council ?—A. Not that I know of. Q. Was any particular sum spoken of?—A. No, sir. Q. Did you have the impression that money was used?—A. No, sir. Q. You had no such impression?—A. No, sir. Q. What was there said, so far as you know, to lead people to infer that money was used?—A. Because there were two bills before the House and Senate; one to lease to a company and the other to anybody. Q. That was all, you think?—A. Yes, sir. One was for $100,000, and the other for not less than $100,000. Q. And they took the one which was to lease for $100,000 rather th the one for not less than $100,000?—A. We could not decide. Q. Were you equally divided?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, when the matter got into the council, how was it decided; what was the vote?—A. I don't know just how the vote stood. Q. Was there a large majority for the bill, or was it very close?—A. It was very close. Q. And do you remember how many votes would have turned it the other way?—A. I could not say exactly. Q. Was there a good deal of division of sentiment in the council?—A. Yes, sir; it was pretty equally divided. Q. Was the contention upon the question whether it should be one of the two bills, or whether to lease it at all?—A. Both, sir. Q. Were any considerable number opposed to leasing?—A. Yes, sir. Q. And there were others opposed to leasing to these men for the $100,000?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Did the bill which proposed to lease the land for not less than $100,000 have the names of the men who wanted to lease?—A. No, sir; there were no names mentioned. The purpose was to put it up to the highest bidder, and it was to lease for not less than $100,000. Q. There was a good deal of opposition, then?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Has public sentiment changed since?—A. Well, sir, the people, after the passage of the bill, were willing to submit. We are all willing to submit to the law, you know. Q. How did you feel about the wisdom of it? Now, if you bad power would you do something else with this land? Would you change it or would you leave it as it is?—A. Well, sir, I think I would leave it as it is. Q. Are you familiar with the treasurer's accounts?—A. No, sir; I am not. Q. Do you remember that the United States paid the Indians $300,000 a year or two ago?—A. Yes, sir. Q. That was on account of some of this land, was it not?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Was it not on account of this very land, as you understand it?—A. I could not say, sir. I don't understand it. Q. Do you know of any money or any other thing of value having been paid to anybody for the purpose of inducing your people to grant these leases?—A. No, sir; not at all. Q. Do these people employ any of your people to help them?—A. I do not know, sir; I was never there. Q. Would any considerable number of your people like to herd cattle on the land, if they could?—A. I believe they would. I could not say how many. Q. In your opinion, would it be wise for your people to herd cattle themselves, or is it better to lease it in this manner?—A. Well, sir; I don't know. Q. Which, on the whole, would be the best way? Do you think that your people would rather let these fellows stay there until the lease expires?—A. They are willing to submit. Q. I know that; but I want to get your views of the best way to do it?—A. I could not say, as I am not familiar with the treaties. Q. On the whole, then, they would rather sit down and take the money than do the work for themselves and have the care of the herds themselves?—A. Yes, sir; I think so. Q. Do your people do much in the line of cattle raising>—A. No, sir; where I live the land is not good.; By Mr. Vest: Q. Mr. Crittendon, what was known of this man Starr around Tahlequah, with whom you had this conversation? What does he do there?—A. He works in a printing office, and he is deputy high sheriff. Q. Was not a particular sum mentioned in the conversation that you had with him? Who did he say could make this money, you or himself?—A. He did not say I could make anything. Q. He did not say that you could make anything?—A. No, sir; he said he could make two or three hundred dollars off of these parties. Q. Now, Mr. Crittendon, did you not state to me on Saturday in the room of the Committee on Territories, in the presence of Mr. Ivey. that this man told you that if you voted for this bill he could make so much money?—A. No, sir; I did not say that he said such a thing. I did not give the name of the man that told me that. Q. You did not give the name of the man who told you that money could be made? Did you not say that if you voted or spoke for it, he could make $400?—A. No, sir; I did not say that Starr told me so. Q. Who told you so?—A. I did not say that Starr told me so. Q. Well, who was it, then?—A. A man told me he could make that much. Q. Who is he?—A. Sanders. Q. Sanders told you that?—A. Yes, sir. Q. Was he a member of the council?—A. Yes, sir. Q. And this man Starr said be could make two or three hundred dollars?—A. He said he believed he could. By Mr. Bowen: Q. Mr. Crittendon, have you ever made a statement to the effect that if the bill passed it would pass for money?—A. Yes, sir; I have. Q. Did you have any conversation with French Rowe on the subject?—A. We were talking about the bill passing, and he laughed and said that a man offered him $90. By Mr. Cameron: Q. Mr. Crittendon, were your people acquainted with the men to whom the lease was given for $100,000?—A. I do not know, but I guess they were. Q. Had they not been on the range for some time with their cattle?—A. I have always understood so. Q. Who were the other men, if you know, who were at the capital at the time of the extra session of the council, who were desirous of leasing the land?—A. I do not know. By Mr. Harrison : Q. You were asked whether you thought this lease was a profitable and desirable one to your people. Do these parties pay any tax beside the $100,000?—A. No, sir. Q. They simply pay a rental for the land?—A.. That is all. Q. Was not the bill which proposed to lease the land for not less than $100,000 gotten up for the benefit of Cherokee citizens?—A. No, sir; it was not gotten up for any particular persons, but for the object of getting as much money for the land as possible. Q. Did those who opposed the bill which passed do so because they thought it would open the matter to competition?—A. I do not know. Q. What led you to prefer the other bill to the one that passed?—A. Because I thought the other was dictated to the legislature. Q. Do you know which bill the principal chief preferred?—A. I do not; but I guess it must have been the one that passed. By Mr. Cameron: Q. Did you examine the bill that proposed to lease for not less than $100,0001—A. No, sir. Q. Did not that bill provide that the land should be leased to a company of Cherokee citizens?—A. That bill was never brought before the House. I do not know whether it was brought before the Senate or not. Return To Testimony Index.
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Testimony taken by the Committee on Indian Affairs
1885

HON. GEORGE W. CRITTENDON.

Washington, D. C., January 12, 1885.

GEORGE W. CRITTENDON sworn and examined.
By the Chairman:

Question. Mr. Crittendon, where do you reside?—Answer. I reside in the Cherokee Nation, Indian Territory.
Q. Are you a member of the Cherokee tribe?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is your age?—A. Forty.
Q. Have you always resided there?—A. Yes, sir; I was born and raised there.
Q. Do you hold any office under the Cherokee government?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is that office?—A. I am a member of their council.
Q. Have you been so for some time?—A. Yes, sir; for many years.
Q. For how many years?—A. About six years.
Q. Were you a member of the council during the talk about leasing of the land?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you in attendance at the council when it was decided to lease the land to these particular men?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have any particular care of it, or were you a member of any committee?—A. Yes, sir; I was on a committee.
Q. What had that committee to do with it; was it referred to them for consideration?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Of how many members did that committee consist?—A. I do not know just how many members of the Senate were members of the committee. but there were three from our House.
Q. Three from your House and some of the members of the Senate, besides?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were they unanimous in their report?—A. No, sir; the committee could not decide the matter.
Q. Did anybody in the interest of these lessees appear before the committee?—A. No, sir.
Q. Did anybody in their interest have any talk with any members of the committee upon the subject?—A. No, sir; not with the committee .
Q. You think not?—A. No, sir.
Q. With any members of the council?—A. I do not know, sir.
Q. Did anybody talk with you—Any of these stockmen; anybody in the interest of these stockmen?—A. I could not say particularly.
Q. Did anybody talk with you?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who?—A. Mr. Starr did.
Q. Who is Mr. Starr?—A. He is a Cherokee.
Q. He is a member of the tribe, then?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he hold any office under the Cherokee Nation?—He was a Cherokee, you say?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was he at Tahlequah?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he come to see you?—A. No, sir; I just simply met him.
Q. What did he say to you?—A. He just said he wanted me to vote for the leases. I think he was just trying to test my vote. He said that he thought he could make a little out of this.
Q. He told you he thought he could make a little out of this?—A. Yes, sir. He thought he could make a little off of these parties. I told him I could not do anything for him.
Q. You told him you could not do anything for him?—A. Yes, sir. He said if I would talk up the bill he could make some money or make something out of it. I told him that did not suit me.
Q. What else?—A. He said he would see me again.
Q. Did he see you again?—A. No, sir; be did not come back.
Q. Did nobody else talk to you on that business?—A. No, sir.
Q. Did any one connected with the leases at all?—A. No, sir.
Q. Did you know of anybody being offered anything when you were there?—A. Well, sir, it was the general talk.
Q. What was the general talk?—A. That they used money.
Q. Who used money?—A. These men who were after the leases.
Q. In what. way did they use money?—A. To influence members.
Q. You do not remember who said this particularly?—A. No, sir. That was just the general talk among us—that money was used to influence the council.
Q. Was that talk directed to any particular member of the council ?—A. Not that I know of.
Q. Was any particular sum spoken of?—A. No, sir.
Q. Did you have the impression that money was used?—A. No, sir.
Q. You had no such impression?—A. No, sir.
Q. What was there said, so far as you know, to lead people to infer that money was used?—A. Because there were two bills before the House and Senate; one to lease to a company and the other to anybody.
Q. That was all, you think?—A. Yes, sir. One was for $100,000, and the other for not less than $100,000.
Q. And they took the one which was to lease for $100,000 rather th the one for not less than $100,000?—A. We could not decide.
Q. Were you equally divided?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, when the matter got into the council, how was it decided; what was the vote?—A. I don't know just how the vote stood.
Q. Was there a large majority for the bill, or was it very close?—A. It was very close.
Q. And do you remember how many votes would have turned it the other way?—A. I could not say exactly.
Q. Was there a good deal of division of sentiment in the council?—A. Yes, sir; it was pretty equally divided.
Q. Was the contention upon the question whether it should be one of the two bills, or whether to lease it at all?—A. Both, sir.
Q. Were any considerable number opposed to leasing?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. And there were others opposed to leasing to these men for the $100,000?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did the bill which proposed to lease the land for not less than $100,000 have the names of the men who wanted to lease?—A. No, sir; there were no names mentioned. The purpose was to put it up to the highest bidder, and it was to lease for not less than $100,000.
Q. There was a good deal of opposition, then?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Has public sentiment changed since?—A. Well, sir, the people, after the passage of the bill, were willing to submit. We are all willing to submit to the law, you know.
Q. How did you feel about the wisdom of it? Now, if you bad power would you do something else with this land? Would you change it or would you leave it as it is?—A. Well, sir, I think I would leave it as it is.
Q. Are you familiar with the treasurer's accounts?—A. No, sir; I am not.
Q. Do you remember that the United States paid the Indians $300,000 a year or two ago?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was on account of some of this land, was it not?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was it not on account of this very land, as you understand it?—A. I could not say, sir. I don't understand it.
Q. Do you know of any money or any other thing of value having been paid to anybody for the purpose of inducing your people to grant these leases?—A. No, sir; not at all.
Q. Do these people employ any of your people to help them?—A. I do not know, sir; I was never there.
Q. Would any considerable number of your people like to herd cattle on the land, if they could?—A. I believe they would. I could not say how many.
Q. In your opinion, would it be wise for your people to herd cattle themselves, or is it better to lease it in this manner?—A. Well, sir; I don't know.
Q. Which, on the whole, would be the best way? Do you think that your people would rather let these fellows stay there until the lease expires?—A. They are willing to submit.
Q. I know that; but I want to get your views of the best way to do it?—A. I could not say, as I am not familiar with the treaties.
Q. On the whole, then, they would rather sit down and take the money than do the work for themselves and have the care of the herds themselves?—A. Yes, sir; I think so.
Q. Do your people do much in the line of cattle raising>—A. No, sir; where I live the land is not good.;

By Mr. Vest:

Q. Mr. Crittendon, what was known of this man Starr around Tahlequah, with whom you had this conversation? What does he do there?—A. He works in a printing office, and he is deputy high sheriff.
Q. Was not a particular sum mentioned in the conversation that you had with him? Who did he say could make this money, you or himself?—A. He did not say I could make anything.
Q. He did not say that you could make anything?—A. No, sir; he said he could make two or three hundred dollars off of these parties.
Q. Now, Mr. Crittendon, did you not state to me on Saturday in the room of the Committee on Territories, in the presence of Mr. Ivey. that this man told you that if you voted for this bill he could make so much money?—A. No, sir; I did not say that he said such a thing. I did not give the name of the man that told me that.
Q. You did not give the name of the man who told you that money could be made? Did you not say that if you voted or spoke for it, he could make $400?—A. No, sir; I did not say that Starr told me so.
Q. Who told you so?—A. I did not say that Starr told me so.
Q. Well, who was it, then?—A. A man told me he could make that much.
Q. Who is he?—A. Sanders.
Q. Sanders told you that?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was he a member of the council?—A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this man Starr said be could make two or three hundred dollars?—A. He said he believed he could.

By Mr. Bowen:

Q. Mr. Crittendon, have you ever made a statement to the effect that if the bill passed it would pass for money?—A. Yes, sir; I have.
Q. Did you have any conversation with French Rowe on the subject?—A. We were talking about the bill passing, and he laughed and said that a man offered him $90.

By Mr. Cameron:

Q. Mr. Crittendon, were your people acquainted with the men to whom the lease was given for $100,000?—A. I do not know, but I guess they were.
Q. Had they not been on the range for some time with their cattle?—A. I have always understood so.
Q. Who were the other men, if you know, who were at the capital at the time of the extra session of the council, who were desirous of leasing the land?—A. I do not know.

By Mr. Harrison :

Q. You were asked whether you thought this lease was a profitable and desirable one to your people. Do these parties pay any tax beside the $100,000?—A. No, sir.
Q. They simply pay a rental for the land?—A.. That is all.
Q. Was not the bill which proposed to lease the land for not less than $100,000 gotten up for the benefit of Cherokee citizens?—A. No, sir; it was not gotten up for any particular persons, but for the object of getting as much money for the land as possible.
Q. Did those who opposed the bill which passed do so because they thought it would open the matter to competition?—A. I do not know.
Q. What led you to prefer the other bill to the one that passed?—A. Because I thought the other was dictated to the legislature.
Q. Do you know which bill the principal chief preferred?—A. I do not; but I guess it must have been the one that passed.

By Mr. Cameron:

Q. Did you examine the bill that proposed to lease for not less than $100,0001—A. No, sir.
Q. Did not that bill provide that the land should be leased to a company of Cherokee citizens?—A. That bill was never brought before the House. I do not know whether it was brought before the Senate or not.

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The copyright (s) on this page must appear on all copied and/or printed material.
© 2024 by C.S.L.S.A. Site Coordinator